Episode #70 Costly Hiring Mistakes & Marketing Myths - Emir Atli Grows Businesses FAST with HockeyStack

In this episode of the Revenue Reimagined podcast, Emir Atli, co-founder and CRO of Hockey Stack, shared his insightful experiences transitioning from Y Combinator to building a powerful revenue operations tool for B2B companies. The conversation delved into hiring mistakes, the intricacies of marketing attribution, the significance of sober company culture, and the overall dynamics of sales processes.

Major Topics Discussed
1. Biggest Mistake: Hiring Wrong People
Emir emphasized that hiring the wrong individuals can waste valuable time and resources:
Resulted in a six-month setback for his company.
Highlights the emotional and mental drain of managing poor hires.

2. Marketing Attribution Challenges
Atli outlined why attribution remains a significant hurdle for many companies:
-Companies often have multiple data sources tracking different buyer journey aspects.
-APIs and tracking systems are often incompatible, making it difficult to create a unified picture of the customer journey.

Common Misconception: Marketing and sales often have conflicting views about attribution, complicating the credit allocation for generated leads.

3. Effective Growth Strategy
Emir shared how Hockey Stack addressed its growth strategy:
-They differentiated their approach for Enterprise vs. Mid-Market segments, recognizing the need for distinct strategies.
-They were advised to treat Enterprise sales as a company-wide effort, requiring aligned processes across all departments.

4. Culture of In-Office Work
Emir has strong views on the necessity of an in-office culture:
-He believes a thriving office culture enhances productivity.
-Promoting meaningful connections allows for faster feedback and decision-making.
-While a hybrid model might be viable, Emir maintains that in-person interactions lead to better performance and team spirit.

Overall, Emir’s journey with Hockey Stack reveals important lessons for current entrepreneurs. From understanding the critical nature of hiring talent, navigating the complexities of attribution, and cultivating a robust office culture, these insights offer valuable guidance for companies aiming for significant growth. Emir's reflections position him as a thought leader in the B2B revenue operations sector, showcasing how thoughtful approaches can yield substantial rewards in achieving business objectives.

Follow Emir: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emircatli/

PS - huge shout out to Sendoso for sponsoring our show.

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Transcript

00:00 what's the biggest mistake we could
00:02 start there what's the biggest mistake
00:04 you made from coming out a YC to now
00:07 that you look back and you're like I
00:09 can't believe I thought this made sense
00:10 to do
00:14 this hiring wrong
00:22 people welcome back to another episode
00:24 of the revenue reimagine podcast we have
00:27 with us today Amir Atley who is the
00:29 co-founder and C of hockey stack the
01:32 command center for B2B Revenue teams and
01:34 what I love about Amir is the way he
01:36 frequently posts on LinkedIn about the
01:38 old way of measuring marketing and
01:39 attribution how it doesn't work along
01:42 with all sorts of information about
01:43 hockey Stacks growth in one of quite
01:46 frankly the most transparent ways I've
01:48 ever seen um and recently talking about
01:50 how hockey stock killed every program
01:52 that wasn't generating enough pipeline
01:54 making pipeline generation a team sport
01:57 and that you guys actually set up your
01:58 first cold outbound program so excited
01:01 to dig into everything y'all are doing
01:03 the success that you've had and just
01:05 what the is wrong with go to market
01:07 and how y'all are fixing it man thanks
01:09 for joining the
01:10 show of course I'm really EXC welcome to
01:13 the show Amir um so tell the audience
01:16 first like why the name hockey stack
01:18 like what was the name what was it base
01:20 off of why' you call it hockey
01:23 stack yeah so it's coming from the
01:26 hockey stick growth uh curve basically
01:29 if we help companies get to that if
02:32 you're already at there we help you
02:35 continue doing the same
02:37 thing so as a follow-up question that on
02:40 the um so one of the things that you
02:41 guys are doing a lot is really driving
02:45 Revenue operations Insight from like
02:47 marketing attribution what's happening
02:49 with the attribution
02:50 side what why is it so difficult to
02:54 figure out what attribution where it is
02:56 in the Rev op stack like how to get a
02:59 hold of that and how are you guys
02:01 looking at that from a a challenge
02:04 problem and the value you guys are
02:06 adding on with hockey
02:08 sack yeah so um the biggest problem is
02:11 if you think about like we mainly work
02:13 with midmarket Enterprise so like 500
02:15 employees to thousands of employees
02:17 public companies so if you look at that
02:19 Tech stack which I'm sure you're
02:20 familiar with it they're like there's a
02:23 Salesforce there's a market like Market
02:25 automation platform there are like at
02:28 least four or five different advertising
02:30 platforms
03:30 forms um there's a website there's a
03:33 data warehouse and all of these
03:35 platforms are tracking couple pieces of
03:38 the buyer Journey so the CRM has deal
03:40 information rep data um opportunities
03:44 and all that Mark automation platform
03:46 has the email marketing campaigns forms
03:48 and all of that website has all of the
03:50 website data uh data warehouse if this
03:53 like a plg company it has trial data or
03:55 if it's like a large Enterprise They
03:57 store Revenue data in a data warehouse
03:60 so all of these data platforms have one
03:02 piece or a couple pieces of the buyer
03:04 journey and they track that data in the
03:07 way that they want so marketer attracts
03:10 email marketing campaigns in the way
03:11 that they have built 10 years ago with
03:14 their own API sales force has this
03:17 20-year-old API and they track it in
03:19 their own way and a webset every company
03:23 has a different website with different
03:25 structures so it is really hard to bring
03:28 all the data points together with all
03:30 these different apis and tracking
04:31 systems and complete the buyer journey
04:34 in a way that would make sense so what
04:36 we built um is one single API to track
04:40 all the buyer Journeys and complete the
04:42 picture from these different platforms
04:44 and cleaning and nishing the data from
04:46 different Platforms in one single place
04:49 which another problem is every single
04:51 company has mass of data and they don't
04:52 have time to clean the data so we clean
04:54 the data for them um so that's why and
04:57 then the other part is
04:60 especially as the company grows um
04:02 especially in M Market
04:04 Enterprise what attribution means is
04:07 different so and it it's changing over
04:10 time so I advise companies to look at
04:14 the definition every two quarters for a
04:16 customers um so that you can keep people
04:19 in the company so it's like I have a
04:21 love and hate relationship with what
04:23 they're building essentially um because
04:26 on one hand you help companies generate
04:28 more pipeline because they know what to
04:30 do
05:30 but on the other hand it's affecting
05:32 people's compensation because if you
05:34 think about it I'm telling people
05:36 attribution doesn't mean finding a
05:38 source but if you tell reps like sdrs
05:41 for example you need to Source deals and
05:43 it's going to be 60% of your
05:45 compensation it's going to be your
05:46 salary it's going to be your family's
05:48 feature then you need to make sure that
05:50 you compensate them fairly which then
05:53 equals being a source for a deal so it's
05:55 like really complicated um it's
05:58 different from company to company but
05:60 again one part is the technology problem
05:01 the other part is how we think about
05:03 attribution as a company yep so i' I've
05:07 never worked someplace that gets
05:09 attribution right um and I I for a short
05:13 time worked someplace that was trying to
05:15 solve this problem no longer exists um
05:18 and talking about attribution and how to
05:20 properly determine you know where things
05:21 are attributed whether it be first touch
05:23 last touch Etc and when you look at that
05:27 typically what I found is you know your
05:29 Market marketing leaders have their
06:31 opinion your sales leaders have their
06:32 opinion right if my salesperson spoke to
06:34 them you know if my salesperson outbound
06:36 to them air it doesn't matter how many
06:37 things you've sent them right my
06:38 salesperson should get credit for that
06:40 um and marketing tends to flip-flop that
06:43 where well we started that conversation
06:45 how in depth do you guys get with
06:47 advising you know what it should be
06:49 versus systematically let's segment it
06:52 out based on the percentage of touches
06:54 etc
06:56 etc yeah so uh it's it's different from
06:59 segment to segment for Enterprise they
06:01 usually come with like a predefined way
06:03 of doing it so they say like we are
06:05 compensating People based on this and we
06:07 bring it in hockey stack so it's like
06:08 one part is compensation and the other
06:10 part is generic pipeline usually we
06:12 start from the generic pipeline piece
06:13 how can we generate more pipeline for
06:14 you using the data that you already have
06:17 and then compensation piece we usually
06:19 don't touch that part because they
06:21 really special for the company yeah um
06:24 for midm market usually if if a company
06:26 is
06:28 smaller um like I don't know 500 600
07:31 employees then there's more they usually
07:34 come to us asking more of these
07:37 questions and then we get more involved
07:41 um but like my preference would be
07:43 staying away from the conversation
07:44 because as you know
07:46 it's a double edge toward you can do
07:49 well for a company then still you can
07:51 get punished for it I think the best way
07:54 is um literally as a manager as a leader
07:59 you need to keep the team happy and to
07:02 do that you basically need to ask them
07:05 do you think you're compensated fairly
07:08 for markeing and sales if there's a
07:10 problem why and then you can get to the
07:12 bottom of it Dale do I compensate you
07:16 fairly no never does not enough money to
07:19 put up with me on a daily basis is there
07:22 so so Mir when should people really be
07:25 thinking about this attribution the
07:28 revops the control
08:31 center um you know what's what's the
08:33 size company what's where does it make
08:37 sense to like Implement something like
08:38 hockey stack because I think a lot of
08:40 people are saying yeah this totally
08:41 makes sense but I have like 800 800
08:44 other things that I'm trying to manage
08:46 and control what size would that be for
08:50 them I think uh it depends on the lead
08:53 volume so if you have like for example
08:55 10 leads a month then you can ask them
08:57 where they fun about you if you have 100
08:59 leads then you need the system if you
08:01 have thousand leads you need the
08:03 tomorrow um so it depends on that and
08:06 then two we mainly work with companies
08:09 who have more than 200 employees that's
08:10 usually a good segment um we need like a
08:15 marketing off steam so if you have
08:16 marketing up steam have like a couple
08:18 platforms that you advertise on or like
08:19 use for marketing and sales and if you
08:23 have more than like 10,000 or like close
08:25 10,000 visitors a month then it's like a
08:27 good place to start if you start up I
08:30 would advise you to use just first touch
09:31 and last TCH using Salesforce something
09:33 like that and spreadsheets that would be
09:35 a good way to start and you don't need
09:36 to worry about
09:39 attribution I want to uh I want to shift
09:41 gears a little bit because y'all's
09:44 growth has been nothing short of amazing
09:48 um you know you started like everyone
09:51 right you're out of YC we have little
09:53 revenue and what you guys have done is
09:56 like impressive I obviously follow all
09:58 of you on LinkedIn and and I love how
09:00 you're building in public and being
09:03 totally transparent but like where I'd
09:06 love to know like what's the biggest
09:09 mistake we could start there what's the
09:11 biggest mistake you made from coming out
09:13 a YC to now that you look back and
09:15 you're like I can't believe I thought
09:17 this made sense to do
09:22 this hiring wrong
09:26 people hiring wrong people probably
10:31 wasted 6
10:33 months two people hiring two wrong
10:36 people wasted two 6 months of our life
10:40 and it
10:42 is such a big so like I'm sure you know
10:46 this as well like being a leader
10:49 especially a
10:50 fonder that is such a hard job and it's
10:54 like it's not the hard work is not I
10:56 mean working hard is hard working hard
10:60 is physically hard mentally hard but
10:04 managing people and working with
10:08 people and hiring wrong people and just
10:11 seeing the impact of it on a broader
10:14 team and then needing to fire people
10:16 that is like mentally really hard
10:18 emotionally really draining so I would
10:21 say hiring wrong people is the biggest
10:25 mistake other than
10:27 that go to market side
11:31 um I think the biggest mistake that we
11:33 did in go to market so our growth kind
11:37 of happened unexpectedly so we graduated
11:41 from my last year um right after de
11:44 raise a seed nine months after that a
11:46 serious day serious day we didn't we
11:48 were profitable and all that one of our
11:52 investors preempted us and it was the
11:55 right
11:56 time everything happened so fast
11:59 something things just required more
11:02 thought and we didn't have time to do
11:04 that because everything was like on fire
11:06 all the time and we were trying to keep
11:08 up with momentum so one biggest one big
11:11 mistake that we are trying to make
11:12 better right now is two things treading
11:14 Enterprise and mm Market andb all the
11:17 same in sales process one big mistake
11:20 second big mistake uh that we are we
11:23 have been doing the last couple months
11:25 because we just start up on is trading
11:28 up on and bond the same so if we dig
12:30 deeper into that Enterprise s SMB
12:32 midmarket we have three segments um and
12:35 because of this by the way we Clos SM
12:36 SMB all together for a couple months
12:39 because we thought let's treat midmarket
12:41 Enterprise differently first then we can
12:44 open up S SMP which we're opening up
12:46 right now again because you're at a
12:48 better point so Enterprise especially
12:50 six figure deals it depends on like how
12:53 we treat Enterprise how we Define prise
12:55 for us it's anything after to 120k um in
12:58 Deal size
12:60 so this these deals require much more
12:03 attention and more time more prep more
12:08 personalization in the sales processes
12:11 more
12:12 stakeholders and I've made the mistake
12:15 of treating them the same and not hiring
12:19 people at the right time and that was a
12:24 really big mistake hope I mean
12:26 fortunately we were able to um recover
12:28 from that really fast we didn't lose a
13:31 lot of deals but we were at the point
13:33 where we were starting to lose deals
13:35 because of this so if you treat as SMB
13:38 magn is all the same then you end up in
13:41 a position where you don't have enough
13:42 time your reps don't have enough time to
13:44 treat them differently and you don't
13:46 have the resources to treat them
13:47 differently and one thing that I learned
13:49 this is from Mark Mark cugo um who was
13:54 who has been my adviser from the
13:55 beginning very beginning just spoke with
13:57 him this
13:58 morning yeah he told me so I I was
13:01 telling him like I would we need to do
13:03 Enterprise and all
13:05 that and he told me that Enterprise is a
13:09 team sport sorry company sport not a
13:12 team so you cannot just change the sales
13:14 process to get into Enterprise you need
13:17 to change the customer success process
13:19 you need to change sales process you
13:20 need to treat them more like differently
13:23 in marketing your literally everything
13:26 needs to be different for Enterprise so
13:28 then the next week next mistake was we
14:31 changed sales process for enterprise we
14:32 didn't change anything else then we
14:35 failed again then at some point we were
14:38 able change everything at the same time
14:40 we had marketing that speaks to entprise
14:41 we had customer success process that
14:45 speaks to and handle this Enterprise
14:47 then we change the sales process and
14:49 everything fit into the criteria and
14:52 then right now we are really successful
14:53 Enterprise because the product also
14:55 works to well on Enterprise which is
14:58 like it's more difficult to change the
14:60 product in any other
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15:31 sos.com um Amir so as as you're growing
15:35 like what's the next Evolution inside of
15:37 like
15:38 attribution what's some of the trickiest
15:40 pieces that you guys are are running
15:42 into so you're going Enterprise so the
15:43 products working I think is what gets a
15:46 lot tricky when you're starting to sell
15:47 an Enterprise because things start
15:48 breaking a little bit but what are
15:50 customers really struggling with when it
15:52 comes to attribution today besides data
15:55 in different places is it from the
15:58 channel is it from direct like what are
15:00 the challenges with this attribution
15:02 that you guys are
15:04 seeing yeah so
15:07 um again like there are technological
15:10 challenges and then there are like
15:12 perception challenges technological
15:14 challenges most teams r on first touch
15:16 or last touch which then you see two
15:18 touch points and a buy Journey with
15:22 hundreds of touch points two most teams
15:24 just rely on Salesforce campaigns and
15:27 most most things are not Salesforce
15:29 campaigns
16:30 and then three most teams rely on
16:32 because they rely on Salesforce
16:33 campaigns they're only able to see the
16:35 data that sales people put into
16:38 Salesforce and then perception
16:40 challenges attribution
16:42 literally means attributing something to
16:45 something else like dollars to a source
16:48 dollars to a touch point so because of
16:50 that people think oh is
16:52 just a way for me to justify my spent
16:56 justify my work when they look sometimes
16:59 sales is reaching out and marketing's
16:01 already reached out three or four times
16:03 and they've opened those emails or
16:05 they've uh taken a look at whatever
16:07 you're sending in the newsletter and
16:09 sales the sales person may have just
16:10 called them at the right time or sent an
16:13 email at the right right place but
16:14 really it was marketing that kind of
16:16 like started that process like how do
16:18 you connect those dots
16:20 together yeah
16:23 so do you mean like technologically or
16:25 perception Wise from I think a little
16:28 bit of both from the technology side but
16:29 also from the perception side because
17:32 they probably together yeah from the
17:34 perception side for example for us for
17:37 our op Bond uh we do it based on like if
17:40 you're asking about compensation all
17:41 that we are doing based on meaningful
17:44 engagement from sales so if there's a
17:46 meaningful engagement like I don't know
17:48 they spoke on the phone there's an email
17:51 reply or anything like that we
17:53 compensate our s strs once the deal
17:56 comes through and we have a look back
17:57 window for example for us especially if
17:59 you have a good brand this happens a lot
17:01 so s strr speak to a CMO on the phone
17:03 the CMO says okay I'm good I'm good
17:05 right now I heard about hockey stack I
17:07 don't have the need today but if
17:09 something comes up I will reach out then
17:11 the same CMO comes in bond contact sales
17:14 on our website 45 days
17:16 later then we able to see there's a
17:19 meaningful engagement they've heard
17:20 about aisak but they also talk to
17:22 someone on the phone for 15 minutes then
17:25 we compensate them as well because it's
17:27 in Lo back window and we have a along
17:29 sales cycle so 45 days to 90 days is a
18:32 fair look back window um technologically
18:36 we again we have a one single API for
18:39 all the data points so we're able to
18:41 match all the data points based on the
18:42 domain so hockey stack one single
18:45 account and under the buyer Journey we
18:47 can see sales touch points marketing
18:49 touch points offline touch points and
18:51 then we turn all of those data points
18:53 into dashboards where you can see
18:55 aggregately um how deals or like how
18:58 accounts engage with your
18:02 brand I feel like there's so many people
18:06 who have don't look at it with such a
18:10 holistic view I love the look back
18:11 period um I think that's something that
18:14 I don't typically hear um and I think
18:16 that's you know the best way to make it
18:18 fair because often times to your point
18:21 there is someone who you know the SDR or
18:24 or full cycle AE if that's the case will
18:26 reach out to and you know not and then
18:29 they do come back um but speaking of
19:32 that so SDR or sdrs versus full cycle
19:34 AES I know you posted about this a while
19:36 ago um I think I engaged with your post
19:39 polarizing topic tell me your thoughts M
19:42 sdrs full cycle AES which is right or
19:50 both I
19:52 think it's
19:55 yours that's tell me more that's my up
19:58 why
19:60 I've I've tried this multiple
19:03 times whenever I think there's like two
19:05 things one is a always
19:09 prefer like deal engagement over self
19:12 sourcing sure like if if I have two
19:16 hours if I can push two deals to
19:19 procurement versus self Source One deal
19:23 I would choose former because I can push
19:26 them and then close them and then get
19:27 more money so like there's an incentive
19:30 misam and then you can also compensate
20:32 them but there's no way you can
20:33 compensate for one self Source deal
20:35 versus one Clos one deal
20:38 so that is that and then two
20:41 is again just you can I think there's a
20:46 balance I think there's a there's value
20:49 in keeping reps uh focused on the deals
20:52 but also keeping their muscle like self
20:54 sourcing sourcing deals the
20:56 muscle keeping that sharp is important
20:60 I think you can do
20:02 like I don't know every Friday we every
20:05 rep will Prospect for two hours and then
20:07 self Source One two deals a month I
20:09 think there's value in that that's not
20:12 super important for us because we are
20:14 fortunately our reps are the ARs have uh
20:17 full calendars and we have a growing
20:19 strr team and our in bond is strong too
20:22 so it's not a priority for us but I know
20:25 in six seven months once we grow the
20:27 team I want to bring that back hopefully
20:30 it's not too late but um I want to bring
21:33 that back because I think there's value
21:35 in a seeing how hard Str strs work to
21:38 bring those deals so that they treat
21:39 them respectfully all the deals and also
21:43 keeping their muscles sharp for S
21:45 because you never know it maybe it may
21:47 be the size of the deals you guys are
21:49 going after too so as you go up market
21:51 and Enterprise those deals as as you
21:53 know get longer to close you have to
21:57 negotiate you have a lot of people in
21:59 the deal cycle and so you have to be
21:01 able to uh to keep that that top of
21:04 funnel full and I think that makes sense
21:05 from an sc perspective I think as you go
21:08 down Market it just depends on what the
21:10 size is what the velocity is um but it's
21:14 interesting because one of the things
21:15 you said is as you guys are growing like
21:18 you may look at it a little bit
21:20 differently to actually have more full
21:22 cycle or maybe you go after a little bit
21:25 more mid-market as you go down Market a
21:27 little bit maybe those guys are full
21:28 cycle
21:30 exactly so um as we open up SMB I think
22:33 we will have that um and for SMB I have
22:38 SRS who are going to be promoted to AES
22:41 really soon who will take over SMB the
22:43 best thing I'm a really really huge
22:45 advocate of promoting within the best
22:48 thing about that is ndr if they're high
22:50 performing and if they're a good AE if
22:54 at any time they have a um Block in
22:57 their calendar or they have a day where
22:59 there's not many meetings they can sell
22:02 Source I feel like that is such a
22:04 superpower for a company where you have
22:06 reps or Advocates of the company can
22:09 self source and you train them as an AE
22:11 then you have basically reps who can
22:13 sell source and close deals and
22:14 evangelizing Company and have been with
22:16 the company for a couple years that is I
22:19 think that's a really really good not a
22:22 hack but something that companies can um
22:24 do really well I really like how um Todd
22:28 from amplify think about it we chat
23:30 about this a few
23:32 times
23:34 um and he was he was talking about
23:38 like if you give if you like tell reps
23:42 it would be great for you to self Source
23:43 your deals you would never get self
23:45 sourced deals because you if you give
23:48 them options I would love for you to
23:50 self Source one or two deals a month
23:52 they would be great never works if you
23:55 say on Fridays if especially if you're
23:57 in person or like if you're have an
23:58 office where we go at least once a month
23:01 if you say every Friday we will sit down
23:03 in a room and every one of us including
23:06 the manager we will go after our top
23:08 accounts and self sour deals I feel like
23:11 that is a really good culture a winning
23:13 mindset to have in your
23:16 team lead by example every single time
23:19 lead by example all right last topic
23:21 before we we wrap it up I'm I'm going to
23:23 go with a little polarizing topic um we
23:26 started before we hit record I commented
23:29 um on the jacket so you have very strong
24:31 feelings about being in office um a lot
24:34 of companies now are going back to in
24:36 office Amazon recently announced that if
24:39 you don't go back to the office you're
24:40 going to be fired um they said it a
24:42 little nicer than that but that's my
24:44 words um but a lot of tech companies and
24:46 a lot of
24:48 um individuals whether that be you know
24:50 workers or managers um are very much
24:53 saying
24:54 that productive work from home talk to
24:57 me about your views on you know in
24:60 office and why it's how you land it on
24:03 hockey stock will be an in office
24:06 company yeah we started this um in
24:10 January we prioritized an office and it
24:13 it's definitely
24:14 harder to make work to make work I think
24:18 like from a hiring perspective you also
24:20 have higher costs leing it office
24:22 especially in area like San Francisco or
24:24 like New York if you're in San
24:26 Francisco um it's costly it's harder to
24:28 hire people because you need to relocate
25:30 people or you need to find people in one
25:33 city um it's definitely have a lot of
25:36 cons but I think one thing that I found
25:38 out which I didn't expect is if you
25:42 create a culture that people want to go
25:43 to office
25:44 for then you get more out of each person
25:48 so you effectively need to hire less
25:49 people so that Balan off the cost of
25:52 having an office so my highlight from
25:55 September was two people that I hired
25:57 recently after couple weeks we were all
25:01 having like beers and they said I
25:04 love working at ayack and going
25:06 coming to the office every morning
25:08 because I love hanging out with you guys
25:09 is like you're friends and also working
25:13 for the same goal we celebrating our EVS
25:15 all together that's like one part and
25:18 the other part is feedback loop when we
25:19 were
25:20 remote there were like every single day
25:23 I need feedback on something then you
25:25 shot to someone and they're in East
25:27 Coast or they're not in in the US then
25:30 they're like having lunch it's early
26:31 morning for me it's afternoon for them
26:33 then you wait for that and then after
26:35 that I am in a meeting then I need to
26:37 they need to wait for me then it's like
26:39 six hours after that we jump on a zoom
26:41 talk about it for 10 minutes and we
26:42 leave then it's like 6 hours of waste of
26:45 time for every single person every day
26:48 then that adds up to a huge amount of
26:51 time in person I think is the only way
26:54 to keep the pace moving and from my
26:57 conversations with a lot of people at
26:58 all founders especially like larger
26:01 companies like th 2,000 employees
26:04 especially in YC Community this is like
26:06 the number one thing that I hear
26:08 Founders are trying to go back to office
26:11 but now they have 2,000 employees and
26:13 there's no way to bring 2,000 employees
26:15 back to the
26:16 office so I think the feature is in
26:19 person or
26:22 hybrid um and I'm a huge advocate of it
26:24 I don't know what what do you think
26:25 about
26:26 it ah um Dale you want to go first or
26:29 you want me to go yeah I'll I'll go
27:32 first um I do I wouldn't mandate it but
27:36 I would also prioritize it I guess
27:38 that's the best way I would describe it
27:41 um I think you can get a lot of things
27:42 done in person um and I think the the
27:46 hybrid approach probably works best for
27:48 many people um you know the the the big
27:52 office space now and like you know
27:55 having all the the the the the
27:59 beer and the refrigerator and the you
27:01 know all the the the things that go
27:03 around that I think cause distractions
27:06 as well um instead of just like really
27:08 getting to work and like actually
27:09 executing on the things that you need to
27:10 get done we we like to actually get in
27:13 front with our clients so that we can
27:15 actually get a lot more work done when
27:16 we're in front of people versus like
27:18 Zoom calls here Zoom calls there so I
27:20 think from a productivity perspective
27:22 you could probably get more done quicker
27:25 um when you're together so I wouldn't I
27:28 wouldn't mandate it but I'd prioritize
28:31 it yeah yeah I I I agree I think like we
28:35 we kick off every client with some
28:36 inperson time we were Dale and I were
28:38 actually just at a client um onsite for
28:41 the past couple days I think if you can
28:43 find great talent where you are um even
28:45 just when like Dale and I work together
28:47 we get so much more done in person than
28:49 on zoom and even and that's even if we
28:51 have meetings all day long just being
28:52 able to look over and be like
28:54 hey but I think that
28:58 cities like San Francisco is a very
28:00 expensive city to live in right um for
28:02 the right Talent um at the right time I
28:05 think you make that exception um and
28:07 still require you know some travel to
28:10 the office and some time in the office
28:11 and I think it's very highly dependent
28:13 on the role um I don't think in my
28:15 personal opinion like an entry level SDR
28:18 probably isn't going to be super
28:19 successful remote without that
28:21 camaraderie that training that that in
28:23 office feeding off of one another that
28:25 they need if you have a great sales VP
28:28 that is is phenomenal and could really
28:30 drive your business and lives in Fargo
29:31 North Dakota but you're convinced
29:33 they're the ones stay in Fargo North
29:35 Dakota but you have to come to the
29:36 office you know once a month um I think
29:38 it's a balance but I I agree with the
29:42 prioritization yeah and then the other
29:45 thing with that is sometimes I hear from
29:48 Canada like I don't know what if I need
29:51 to go to a doctor like what if I need to
29:53 run an erand do I need to be an office
29:55 like of course not it's like I I mean
29:58 everything yeah you're an adult if I
29:01 feel like uned then everything needs to
29:03 be controversial to get engagement so
29:05 everything is controversial but when I
29:06 say I I think every single company if
29:10 you want to grow fast sometimes it's
29:11 like if you don't some companies don't
29:13 want to grow fast it's like true there's
29:15 other options some companies want to be
29:17 a lifestyle business they want to grow
29:19 2% a month have a lifestyle that they
29:22 can balance which is perfect to find and
29:23 you can be remote but I think my goals
29:26 and if you want to grow really really
29:28 fast which I want and you need to be in
29:30 person the people that I hire want to do
30:32 that as well so they are willing to
30:33 relocate want to come to the office to
30:36 grow faster but if that doesn't mean if
30:38 you need to run an errand if you're sick
30:40 if you need to go to the doctor you need
30:42 to come to an office I feel like that
30:44 that doesn't mean that so it's more like
30:46 a hybrid approach but that's that's the
30:49 catch though right is you're treating
30:50 people like adults like in office
30:52 doesn't mean your butt is in the seat
30:54 every minute from like if you need to go
30:57 take the dog to the vet like do it the
30:59 same you do at home like just get your
30:00 work done but go do what you need to do
30:03 um we have to trust that we're hiring
30:04 adults and you're going to manage your
30:06 time but when you are working you're
30:08 going to be more productive in the
30:09 office Amir this was uh it was
30:12 insightful to learn more about your
30:14 insights hockey Stacks growth um all
30:17 sorts of good stuff before we wrap we'd
30:19 love to do some rapid fire with you uh
30:21 the rules are are 10 words or or less uh
30:25 all right here we go early bird or night
30:27 owl
31:31 early burden now early burden now is uh
31:35 because of kids because of
31:38 work um so more than 10 words but the
31:43 problem with being in sancisco is even
31:45 if you wake up at 7 it's 10:00 a.m. in
31:49 East Eastern time and it's even late in
31:52 Europe so you need to wake up even
31:53 earlier than that to basically have some
31:55 sort of time where I can deep work or
31:57 work out do something so I need to wake
31:59 up early what time did you get
31:02 up uh 5 right now you and Dale you and
31:05 Dale cool um if you weren't in Tech what
31:09 other trade or profession would you be
31:11 in if I wasn't in Tech
31:17 yeah I always wanted to be a
31:19 professional athlete soccer player
31:21 soccer nice what is your favorite guilty
31:25 pleasure snack
31:30 popcorn flavored or PL your favorite oh
32:34 butter butter flavor I like it what's
32:37 your most used work Emoji in slack text
32:41 Etc uh
32:43 rucket rocket emoji all right two more
32:46 other than other than your phone what's
32:48 the one Tech Gadget you can't live
32:55 without I recently got I don't know if
32:58 it's
32:58 it's probably Tech I got an eight sleep
32:01 a month ago I don't know if you know
32:02 nice I do know I know eight sleep very
32:04 well what do you
32:07 think it's I thought it was overrated
32:09 but it's it's great yeah it's uh I I had
32:13 a chance to work with them years ago on
32:14 on a project yeah the best thing about
32:17 it is not like Sleep part I cannot wake
32:21 up but I put it in like the hottest mode
32:25 and vibration then you need to wake up
32:28 because you're sweating yeah so that is
33:30 really helpful for me nice last one
33:33 let's wrap this up uh dream vacation
33:36 destination turkey turkey M just went I
33:41 did it uh the one word I use when people
33:43 ask me how turkey was was magical um
33:45 it's one of the coolest places I've ever
33:47 been in my life Amir thank you so much
33:49 for joining the show we appreciate it we
33:51 look forward to continuing to watch all
33:53 of your growth um on the sidelines and
33:56 continuing to see hockey stack change
33:57 the landscape that yall play in
33:60 man thank you so much for all the
33:02 support in this chat it was wonderful