Episode #84 The Outbound Sales Playbook: How UserGems Turns Signals into Revenue with Trinity Nguyen

In this episode of Bridge the Gap Podcast, we sit down with Trinity Nguyen, CMO & Head of Account Development at UserGems, to break down the biggest mistakes in outbound sales, why job change signals are game-changers, and how to scale AI-powered sales strategies that actually work.

🔹 The #1 hiring mistake killing your pipeline
🔹 How UserGems built a category around job change signals
🔹 Why updating your ICP every 6 months is non-negotiable
🔹 The secret to frictionless onboarding & retention

💡 If you’re serious about winning outbound sales, this is a must-watch!

👉 Follow Trinity - https://www.linkedin.com/in/trinitynguyen/
🔥 Follow us for more B2B growth strategies

PS - huge shout out to Sendoso for sponsoring our show.

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🎁 Lastly, we have a gift for you! We’re tired of seeing people getting critical GTM components wrong. Need help with your ICP, Buyer Persona, and Value Prop? Tired of the shitty “resources” people “give away” to gain followers?

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Transcript

00:00 
This is Bridge the Gap, powered by Revenue Reimagined, the podcast where we dive into all things revenue. Each episode, we bring you the top founders and go-to-market leaders to challenge how you think about growth and help you bridge your biggest go-to-market gaps. 

00:14 
I'm Adam Jay. And I'm Dale Zwinski. As always, thanks for hanging with us. There's a million ways you could be spending your time and we're grateful you're choosing to spend it with us. Be sure to check out our newsletter if you want the show notes and tactical advice on how to bridge your GTM gaps. 

00:30 
Let's get to it after a quick word from our sponsor. Let's face it, y'all. Hiring sales talent is a real pain in the ass. Getting A players is key to bridging your go-to-market gap, but it's harder than ever. 

00:42 
If you're not actively engaging passive talent, you don't stand a damn chance. That's why at Revenue Reimagined, we trust our partners at Pursuit to help our clients find the best talent fast. If you're looking to strengthen your sales team, go check them out. 

00:56 
At PursuitSalesSolutions.com. This is normally where I would say welcome back to another episode of the Revenue Reimagined podcast. But as you all know who've been following us, we are in the midst of a rebrand. 

01:09 
And this is the first episode of the Bridge the Gap podcast. And we are stoked to have an amazing guest with us today. We have Trinity Newan, who is the CMO and Head of Account Development at User Gems, formerly led product marketing at Sisense. 

01:23 
And I am stoked to talk to you for a couple of reasons. Number one, you have so much knowledge in the space. And number two, we are going through a User Gems implementation with a client right now and having an amazing time. 

01:36 
So I'm stoked to hear a little bit about your journey of how you all have bridged the go-to-market gap. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Adam and Dale, for having me on. I'm excited. I love the name. We just talked about this offline. 

01:48 
I really like this rebrand, guys. Nothing wrong with the name before, but this new one is very catchy. Thank you. I'll take the credit. Dale doesn't get any credit for this one. As I said, we give him one good idea. 

02:00 
quarter. So he's now used it up. And we just came back from our quarterly offsite in Utah. So I think he's a little bit invigorated from from that offsite. So thanks for joining the show. We've been following usagems for a while. 

02:14 
We've talked to Christian in the past. One thing that I'm curious about as you guys think about when you guys were bridging the go to market gap, and you were building out your marketing world, what was what was some of the initial challenges you guys had from getting the awareness of user gems like think back five, five, six years ago, you guys brand new. 

02:37 
What was the awareness build like for you guys? None existent back in the day. So we built the products because we can observe some of the best reps how they build their own pipeline. I'm like, well, not being sellers ourselves, but we're very strong into like automation and technology. 

02:56 
Like most co-founders are technical co-founders. So then we could help people do this. So we know that there is a natural product market fit in a sense that people are doing it, but nobody talked about it. 

03:09 
So like the awareness was zero. So the challenge back in the day was like, how do we get people to realize that A, this is a gold mine that people are sitting on that can help, you know, pressing the gap to hit your target number. 

03:25 
But B is like, there is a solution that is not just like a brute force manual. So that was, it took a little while. We tried all kinds of things like early days was just, so founder led sales, we didn't have sellers. 

03:40 
I was the first business hire just doing the marketing and like the SDR role. So how do we get people to pay attention? Yeah, can you believe it? This one's doing so development. So you're doing a lot of cold calling? 

03:52 
Were you calling? What were you doing at the video? Calling email, like everything, video too. Like the whole video, sending video to everyone, like personalized, there was no tech, which is like, you know, elbow grease. 

04:03 
Yeah, pick and shovel. I like to call it pick and shovel. Yep, all the above. So I think it was like, how do we get people to understand that this is the low hanging fruit? So on the marketing side was like, okay, can we copy the HubSpot playbook of like, if we write a lot of blog posts and SEO it, people are gonna find it. 

04:24 
But that would take a long time. And I'm not a very patient person as everyone that works with me can attest. So I'm like, okay, how can we figure out how to do, inbound takes too long and I can't control it, but like outbound motion, I feel like I can control like the input and output of it a little bit. 

04:41 
So we start doing like picking out the number of accounts that we think have a really strong sales team, AKA outbound motion and therefore would understand the value price. of something like tracking a customer when they change their job. 

04:54 
And then we also put that into the app on message to give them an example of their customer that changed job. And then that was it. So it's funny to me because having some insight in going through a user gems implementation right now and really focusing on signals. 

05:11 
When you look at all these folks out there who are like cold outbound at scale, right? So we're going to go prospect and we're going to go put them all in a smart lead and we're going to have 10,000 domains and we're going to run them through clay and we're going to focus on job change signals. 

05:26 
Like they're all talking about this, like this is some new epiphany they've had that like job signals are this great way to reach out to people with cold outbound. But y'all came up with this years ago, right? 

05:37 
Like this has been something that has been user gems core for years and not only just cold outbound but like deeply embedded into your CRM. Why do you think that it's taken so long for these folks to suddenly have this epiphany that like, holy crap, when someone changes a job, like, probably a good time to reach out to them? 

06:01 
I think because it's hard to, um, so reps do this, like all of us who've done selling before we know, we do it in some capacity, right? Like there's a concept of robo decks. It's not new. Like if you sell to like CIO enterprise as a concept of CIO on the move.com, it's an actual website. 

06:22 
So, so sellers know this, but this motion is not new, but to techify it in a program using technology to scale it as a program, you kind of like bleeding over to kind of like marketing-esque. And for marketers, this concept is odd because it seemed like such a small volume compared to when marketers talk about audience, we talk about millions, like hundreds of thousand, right? 

06:50 
So it doesn't quite click there. So I think there's a little bit of that. And the second part is like, people would say, well, if they love me, wouldn't they come back anyway? So why do I have to, how would you know when they don't come back? 

07:04 
So I think that took a little bit for people to be like, oh, wait, this, this signal really worth scaling. And it's not something that competitors, even if they run the same motion, they can really steal, right? 

07:19 
If someone use your product, I mean, they didn't use the other options. So therefore this is yours and scale with you. Yeah. Very interesting. And so when you were driving that awareness, like, and I know you guys have had competitors come in and out and like some of them tried to do it, but they didn't make it, or they kind of like, it was just fledgling through the process. 

07:43 
What, what were the things that made you... successful even through COVID. So COVID was probably a tough time for you guys. What kept you guys going that we talked about stabilization, foundation building, then to get to repeatability? 

08:00 
What was the foundational elements that you guys were building inside the organization so that when hard times hit or you got competitors that you were like, no, we have a strong foundation, we're going to be able to execute? 

08:10 
What were some of the things, two or three things that you guys built on the foundational level? I think the first thing we did very early on, even when we had like probably two or three customers is like the maniacal focus on like who the ICP is. 

08:28 
It sounds so boring and mundane, but so boring. Yeah, so boring. Foundation 101, like sales 101, people don't realize like that's so important, and they don't do it right at all. Yeah, it's like college. 

08:41 
How do you how do you go to a 201 or one class without doing the basics first? You can't and if people don't realize that. You have no idea who the heck you're selling to I love like it's not as boring like it's not sexy, but it's not boring It's important. 

08:55 
Yeah, I I love it because my back I'm biased to my backgrounds in product marketing So it just kind of came naturally it doesn't make sense right like I'm like you said you got a one-on-one before you get to the 201 So back in the day like anyone who was a usage I know that in our dashboards the early days we we track the ICP coming in and out we monitor it We discuss it every six months or so. 

09:16 
We change ICP if the mix changes. So we very nerdy in that sense I think that's a foundational part Yeah, that kind of helped us kind of like focus on like the ones that we want to reach out to and not the others I love that quick follow-up on that because Six five years ago you could do it once and probably get away with it for three years Are you guys reviewing your ice? 

09:40 
How often are you guys reviewing your ICP buying persona value problem the time? Oh my god all the time. Um, I Would say like you probably make official Changes to kind of align team as the business like evolve in the market evolve every six months or so But I feel like every six months there'll be like some kind of like pipeline council discussions But like this is not working. 

10:00 
These are all the edge cases that are done And when I feel that friction across the revenue team, I know we need to revisit Everyone should hear that every six months. We just went to a conference We just went to a conference and we had everybody raise their hand It was like two years and it's like it you don't realize how fast go to markets changing Every three to six months and so I love that you guys at least look at it every six months Yeah I actually looked at it every every other day because in the dash in the dashboard when I told you guys we have the dashboards And it's already every account is markets ICP versus non ICP So from the demo request through the entire pipeline so my dashboards of how the pipeline is doing There's always a stack. 

10:41 
It's always split between ICP not ICP So it's very easy for me every two days to see like there's our mix change and then the anecdotes from the teams from the CS all the way to the SDR. That's anecdotes. 

10:53 
It kind of comes on. Is that the CRM dashboard that you're talking about? Yeah, just Salesforce dashboard. We just mark everything. So I think that's the second foundational thing that we did, again, being super nerds. 

11:06 
We tag everything. We love being nerdy. So we track and tag everything. Every account is tagged with like ICP, non-ICP, every contact with the title coming in where we kind of enrich ourselves. But then the RevOps team also have a formula that automatically group them into like which persona they in. 

11:25 
So I can already see the mix of our persona. Does it change over time? Is it leaning more sales or marketing or ops over time? And is that coming from marketing and also from opportunities or is it just when you're creating opportunities, you're tagging them? 

11:41 
Every hand. So we have like a mainly. We don't really have other forms of mission so much. It's mostly like demo requests. So all the contacts. Got it. All the contacts get mapped. Cool. So we're updating our ICP at least every six months. 

11:58 
Everyone listening should take note because if you're not doing that, I don't care what business you're in, whether you are selling solar panels door to door, whether you're selling user gems, whether you're selling a extremely complex, you know, software to CIOs, you gotta update that ICP. 

12:14 
How much pushback, if any, do you get from the sales team when you're updating that ICP and how do you roll out ICP updates so that it's not like, oh my goodness, you guys are changing everything on me. 

12:29 
So that happens all the time. Change is inevitable, especially in the startup. And us salespeople love change, don't we? Yeah, but I think it's a, but to our sellers credit, I think it's usually the marketing team that wants to like widen the post to test, especially with new products coming out, where we don't know yet. 

12:49 
We're like, okay, do we expand it? Not, but we also have like this AECSM handoff like kind of an approval sales channel. So our sellers actually not the ones that's like don't, they're the ones that want to like straighten the ICP more so that the CSM accept the deal coming in. 

13:09 
Imagine that, a handoff. Yeah, that's a friction point, yeah, that's friction point, which is healthy. So I think like, as we kind of like making sure that we have customers that we knew and has a strong LTV, it pushes up to the AEs who then pushes up to the SDR and now SDR is pushing up to demand to make sure that we don't have bad ones. 

13:27 
So yeah. It's very interesting. You were just talking about a handoff. So let's go to the other end of the go to market motion. So now you're in the CS world and how are you guys, talk to us a little bit about what the CS world looks like at you. 

13:45 
Is it a renewal-based opportunity? Is it a revenue generation for user gems? What kind of balance do you guys have with the CS side of the house? Yeah, I think LCS seems the way this structure is really strong. 

14:00 
Having said that, I'm not saying that we've figured it out in terms of the revenue side of it. Large companies would have account management who's responsible for driving the expansion piece. LCS wears both hats. 

14:15 
So once the handoff happened from AEs to CS, we have CS engineering, so the implementation side. But because they're responsible for driving the AI component too. They have clear milestones to see the first opportunity, the customer needs to generate the first opportunity with user gems in X days. 

14:37 
And then that will hand off to a... typical CSM. And then there's a certain like metrics that we track to see whether an account is ready for expansion or upsell conversation. And that's when the CS will flag and bring an AE. 

14:51 
So the expansion goals is split between two teams. People buy from people. That's why companies who invest in meaningful connections win. The best part, gifting doesn't have to be expensive to drive results. 

15:04 
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15:18 
If you're looking for a proven way to win and retain more customers, visit Sandoso.com. Awesome. Interesting. So Dale, you would be very impressed going through a user gems implementation right now. And Trinity, we onboard so much software for our clients, right? 

15:35 
Like probably we're always onboarding anywhere from three to five different softwares. And most of them are 27 emails of you need to do this and do that and go back and forth here. And you guys actually use a I'll call it a joint engagement plan, not just for the sales side, but for the onboarding side as well. 

15:55 
And you're using a platform called Accord. But like working with Steven, every single step, Dale, that I need to do is very clearly mapped out to make sure that I'm doing it, that we're getting the value that we could show the value when we're following a process to ultimately drive Trinity as you were talking about quick immediate time to value for the customer that we know I should see that first win or that first response within arguably a day of going live if things are going correct. 

16:22 
I think the way you guys are doing it is really special. Thank you. Thank you. I'll make sure that Steven get this. Yeah, I think that the handoff is really like really optimized, I'd say and we get that feedback quite a bit. 

16:36 
When you look back at the journey of users, So we talked about stabilization, foundation, repeatability, scalability. There's times that we find that you think you are in repeatability and you actually need to go back to foundation, or you might even need to go back to stabilization because something gets, you know, really messed up or there's this big change. 

16:58 
What's one standout moment where you guys thought you had it nailed and then you looked back and you're like, we got to start over here or we're going to fundamentally hurt the business? So many times. 

17:11 
So many times. Someone told me this years ago, and I only internalize it through this journey with user gems is every time you 3X your business, everything breaks. If things don't break, that means you're moving too safely and too slow. 

17:29 
So like, yeah. And I remember every time we did that, like this, okay. the sentence came back to my mind. And I had to tell that to the team is like, it's okay that it breaks and you can feel the frustration. 

17:41 
It's actually a good thing. Because otherwise, it's just kind of like status quo forever, right? So tons every time I like clockwork. Like for us, I would say, the biggest one that I would say that we're going to do right now, actually, we can see bias. 

18:02 
But I think this one is right now is the one that I'm actually trying to figure out. So we did a decent job back in the day to kind of build awareness, build the so call category, what we couldn't do back in the day is we actually started out calling job share instructing as a signal in 2020. 

18:23 
Nobody gave two cents about what the heck signal was, kind of use trigger event, people didn't like the word trigger, because it's too triggering. So nothing ever happened. So we didn't, it didn't work out until December of 2023. 

18:38 
So a year is ago, but in Q4, all of a sudden, everyone talked about signals. And then last year, everyone's like, please stop talking about signals. Why is everything signals? So we've transferred kind of like, we built that job change thing, and we expand to all kinds of different signals, like funding, hiring, you name it, everything that could indicate that someone might be in a buying window. 

19:00 
But then right now, all that is just a foundational pieces of the product, because we build the data and we own our own data instead of going outside and find data. So that we can have this AI agent for sales, that is not making people want to roll their eyes and just like, churn in like, three months situation. 

19:21 
So I'm going through that right now, the piece in terms of like, who is our ICP? What is our positioning that makes us different than every other AI out there? Where should we play? and why us to be the winner kind of thing. 

19:38 
So I'm going through that right now. So I feel like a lot of the things that work in the past, we have to review and everything have to justify at place. And how do we tell this story in a way that people are like, oh, it makes sense that you're in this. 

19:50 
And this is like user jam's evolution and not the like, whoa, what do you do? Yeah, and this probably, one of the things we've been thinking a lot about when we've talked to some of our clients about is, especially in the SaaS world, how do you get somebody to potentially get into your product at least weekly, if not daily? 

20:09 
Like, how do you get somebody to like look at it, use it, find it valuable, especially salespeople, right? Cause we're like always all over the place. And we've likened it. So the partners in the firm have all got order rings. 

20:23 
And so we all got rings to track activity so that we can, like we can compete with each other. But in that competition, we're always looking at our activity almost on a daily basis. So it's like that same opportunity that how someone like user gems can get people to look into the product on a daily basis so that they're all like they can't go a day, two days, three days without going into the product to look at what their achievement is. 

20:51 
That's the goal. That's another thing too that is so the product will get to that point. And I don't know when you guys are going to air this and I feel like everyone's going to be listening to me like in the start. 

21:05 
Four weeks. Okay, so, so this is something that we are trying to from the product side trying to get to daily what you said, the, I would say like the DNA of user gems like five years ago, which works really well back then but now kind of go back to what Adam was saying like everything has to be redone. 

21:27 
So, our DNA back in the day is like user gem is a set it and forget it tool. We just generate you just see money and opportunities created you don't have to think about it you set up once, and it just runs. 

21:38 
So the entire product DNA is optimized for that. So like rev never have to think about it. They just know, oh, it's a user gens lead. I'm going to make money out of this. That's it. But as we kind of moving to probably evolve to where we are today. 

21:53 
You don't want to be too set it and forget it because people actually forget about you. Exactly. And, and now it does a lot more things now and just with just one signal says all the signals so right now I'm running, I would say like probably 12 different place for outbound that using all kinds of signals so. 

22:10 
Naturally, you need someone to log in and look at it and optimizing it, even with AI, and you want the reps to see it as well. Otherwise, they don't know that it's a product so many times we have a lot of past users like a ease and SDRs that they thought user gems is an internal nickname for a program that ops built You didn't have brain recognition. 

22:34 
I know right? So that's what we have to be so loud and active on the brand side to be like, hey, we're an actual company. But yeah, so that's another thing that we try to redo or like evolve, like what Adam was asking earlier. 

22:49 
When you guys are looking to make changes, you have the benefit of, I hope, actually using your own product in house. Yeah. And driving business off of that. And a lot of companies don't have that benefit, right? 

23:04 
Like they sell something really cool, but it's not something that like everyone in the business can use. How do you guys like solicit feedback from the team as far as like, you know, this would be forget and it's important what customers want. 

23:16 
But like internally, like Trinity to help me as a rep sell better. Can we look at this signal? Can we develop this play? We develop this messaging. Do you guys do things like hackathons or employee engagement? 

23:27 
Like how do you build the platform from the inside out? it's actually built from the inside out. And sometimes I'm scared. I'm like, wait, what if I'm the one that's wrong? What if I'm the weird one, and no one else want the things that the team wants? 

23:42 
Our entire outbound is powered by user gems. I told the team, I told the reps, I'm like, guys, I know, like, when you see the sausage made, sometimes you see things that they get, you know, not perfect yet. 

23:53 
But we're spoiled, we spoiled to the core, our entire CRM is powered by user gems. Outbound, if we need something spun up, if we don't have it, the product team will hack us on like in two days and give us that. 

24:04 
So the product is actually built for the team. I just hope our team is typical. And it's not just that we the weird ones. That's funny. That's funny. Yeah. And how do you so this is this is very interesting to me, because we're actually working with a client right now. 

24:23 
How do you balance the feedback you get from clients and the internal feedback that you're getting? Like, you have a vision for the product. But you also have people using the product. And as a CMO, and working with the dev team, how do you guys balance that? 

24:41 
Is it like a 7030 rule? Do you guys have any rules like that? Like, how does that work? I wish they had like a sophisticated answer, I think. So we have a lot of like product feature request channels, product feedback channels, all that in the slack and the entire product team and engineering teams on it. 

25:05 
And we have a ticketing system so that they can prioritize. I think that the PM does a good job of kind of prioritizing it with the resources we have. Having said that, because I really think the user gems internal team is the number one power users, so we actually tend to see things two, three months before the customer even see it because we use it first. 

25:30 
So for example, like the AI agent that publicly launched a couple of weeks ago, we've been using it since September and we see the impact already so that the team actually sees it. So we, I would say, I would say probably like 60% of the, in terms of product improvement coming from internal, just because we had that. 

25:54 
You probably have a score rating on it too. So if you guys identify something and then like customers are like uptaking it, so do you guys, when you guys find something, you guys put it in the channel to ask customers if this is something that they would want? 

26:08 
Yeah, so we starting that soon to kind of bring customers in a little bit more so we can have this open dialogue on what we've seen so far, but that will change soon. Cause I'd love to, I love what you were saying that like deaf community of bringing folks in so people can exchange ideas. 

26:24 
A lot of time what we've seen is like signals is pretty new, it's not rocket science, but just like wrap your heads around how do you. build programs around signals, let alone AI. Everyone's leaning into AI, but no one really knows. 

26:36 
Like how does it, what does it mean? Yes, there's a spray and gray and here's a target list and you can send whatever, but there's a more sophisticated way. So what's the right way? So what we've seen is that customers usually ask us like what's working for you? 

26:48 
How do you do it? How do all the customers that have a head run do it? Can you share with us? So we try to be the guinea pig and try as many things as possible, playbook, templatize it and pass it on and then get feedback from customers and iterate it. 

27:05 
Awesome. Yeah. I wish more people would actually incorporate customer feedback. Like we all think that we know what our customers want using our products, right? Cause we eat our own dog food. We use it every day. 

27:20 
This is what I would want. And some of the time we're probably right, but other times like I don't think a lot of companies do a good job of like, ask your customers what they want. Ask your customers what they love about your product. 

27:36 
Ask your customers like, hey, money is no object. Dev time is no object. This product could do anything for you within the scope of what we do. What would it be? And you get so much valuable feedback that you could then put into motion versus what most people do, which is the customer is going to churn. 

27:54 
And it's, oh, Trinity, now that you're leaving, can you tell me what we could have done differently? Well, had you asked me that six months ago, I wouldn't have left. So I love it here. Yeah, a hundred percent. 

28:06 
A hundred percent. We do like in quarterly win-loss churn interviews just from the product marketing just to get feedback qualitatively. And the CSM also has this like automation where a certain milestone, again, we use all the data in CRM and kind of trigger different milestone. 

28:23 
Adam, you're probably going to see it soon as like, how happy are you with implementation? Like 100 days in and then, and it's just a form. so that hopefully people are more honest and we also ask that like the first third of the customers and life cycle and then again and again and that renewal intention as well and when they submit it it goes into a share slack channel that everyone sees from the product so the red everyone sees it so like the good bad and ugly we all see it and we're like all right rather alert what can you do to turn things around so I think that's another way of bringing feedback in as well 100 if you were to take this product away from me today how upset would I be how much of an impact would it have on my business Trinity this has been amazing before we wrap up I'd love to do some rapid fire with you uh if if you're game sure all right here's the rules 10 words or less um early bird or night owl wait that again who wants to say early bird or night owl night owl, 

29:26 
but aspiring to be early bird. Aspiring early bird. Based on where user gems is today, would you guys say you're in stabilization, foundation, repeatability, or scalability within the business? I would say repeatability because of all the changes we're doing right now. 

29:45 
So I want to build a new system to scale way more than 10 words, but I love that. That's the first time we've asked that one. I love that one. What's your favorite guilty pleasure snack? Right now is protein chips. 

30:02 
This question is crazy. I don't like this protein. Yes. Yeah, they actually really good. Awesome. If you weren't in tech, what trade or other business would you be in? Advertising. I think it's fun. What's one word and one word only to describe your startup journey so far? 

30:37 
Crazy. Love it. That's why as we wrap up dream vacation destination. Bora Bora. Bora Bora. Yes, beautiful. Trinity, thank you so much for joining the show. Everyone, if you want to go see more and learn about user gems, it does have our endorsement. 

30:57 
We use it here at RR. It is user gems.com. Is that correct? Perfect. Go check it out. Utilize signals. It is, in my opinion, likely the only way that you should outbound if you want to get positive responses. 

31:13 
Trinity, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you guys. It's awesome. Thanks so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. As we say at the end of every show, give more than you received, reach out to someone today and offer your assistance. 

31:26 
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Until next time.