Episode #87 He Speaks to AI More than Humans... ft. Jordan Crawford

Your outbound strategy is broken—and you don’t even know it. 😱 In this episode, we sit down with Jordan Crawford, founder of Blueprint and a leading expert in outbound sales, AI-driven prospecting, and go-to-market (GTM) strategy.

🔍 What you’ll learn:
✅ The biggest mistakes companies make in outbound sales
✅ How to craft messages people would pay to receive
✅ Why most Ideal Customer Profiles (ICPs) are outdated and ineffective
✅ The secret to finding, not filtering, your best-fit accounts
✅ How AI is changing the game for prospecting and engagement

💡 “Nothing changes if nothing changes.” If you’re still running the same playbook, you’re falling behind. Tune in to discover how to optimize your outbound strategy and make your GTM motion actually work in today’s market to Bridge the Gap. 

Follow Jordan - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordancrawford/

PS - huge shout out to Sendoso for sponsoring our show.

We could not do this without you.

See how Sendoso can help increase pipeline, ROI, and customer retention.

We are also proudly supported by Pursuit Sales Solutions - Where Hiring A+ Sales Employees is NOT a Pain in the Ass!
https://pursuitsalessolutions.com/revenuereimagined

ZoomInfo is also a proud sponsor - check them out here!

🎁 Lastly, we have a gift for you! We’re tired of seeing people getting critical GTM components wrong. Need help with your ICP, Buyer Persona, and Value Prop? Tired of the shitty “resources” people “give away” to gain followers?

We’ve developed a tool that creates your basic GTM Foundations (ICP, BP, abd Value Prop) for you. Snag it here.

Transcript

This is Bridge the Gap, powered by Revenue Reimagined, the podcast where we dive into all things revenue. Each episode, we bring you the top founders and go-to-market leaders to challenge how you think about growth and help you bridge your biggest go-to-market gaps. I'm Adam Jay. 

And I'm Dale Zwizinski. As always, thanks for hanging with us. There's a million ways you can be spending your time, and we're grateful you're choosing to spend it with us. Be sure to check out our newsletter if you want the show notes and tactical advice on how to bridge your GTM Gaps. Let's get to it after a quick word from our sponsor. 

Let's face it, y'all. Hiring sales talents is a real pain in the ass. Getting A players is key to bridging your go-to-market gap, but it's harder than ever. If you're not actively engaging past the talent, you don't stand a damn chance. That's why at Revenue Reimagined, we trust our partners at Pursuit to help our clients find the best talent fast. 

If you're looking to strengthen your sales team, go check them out. Welcome back to another episode of the Bridge the Gap podcast. We are actually, well, two of us are on location, so forgive the background as we travel in a lovely Hyatt Regency hotel. But we have Jordan Crawford with us today who is a fractional GTM engineer. That is a new up-and-coming term we are going to talk about. A Clay Advisor since 2020 before Clay was cool, and we thought Clay was like the shit that you molded together. He's the founder of Blueprint GTM and admittedly talks to AI more than he talks to humans. Jordan, thanks for being here, man. 

Yeah, thanks so much. And that's a stat I like to loudly proclaim, but I'm very embarrassed about it. Hey, Jordan. Appreciate you joining the pod. 

It's funny. I remember talking to you probably two years ago, even before Revenue Reimagined, you and I were just jabbing on, prospecting, getting contacts. These things called signals that were kind of cool back in the day. 

Talk to the audience a little bit about the evolution of where you came from like two years ago when it was like, find signals, go through the process to what's evolving today and why this shift is important from an outbound perspective. Yeah, yeah. It's a great question. Well, it's really important to talk about where we came from. And I also want to make a promise. I'm going to make a promise that you're going to get 100% of what you paid for to listen to this podcast today. I will even double your money. So come to me specifically and say, I want a 2X refund. But we're actually at the end of this conversation, you will get some prompts of mine to process. So you'll get some value out of listening to this. We won't just talk about what I think about a dog or whatever. So it's like, I came from Appalachia. 

So really let's talk about where we came from because it's really important to understand where we came from to know where we need to go. And so really the way that I'm going to talk about sort of the sort of V.1, V.2, and then no one has a really good line of sight on V.3, but I'm going to describe what that looks like. So version one is essentially get a list of accounts, zoom info, Apollo, whatever. You write persona level messaging, right? CROs need follow-up. Then you find the persona, then you say to your SDRs, personalize this. Like send them, and by the way, you send your 21-year-old SDRs to write to 50-year-old CROs. 

And of course they know everything about CROs. So they're going to be like, Jordan, you wear a white hoodie, I wear a white hoodie. We basically hang out in the same golf clubs. What's up, bro? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know you love white claw. Or the best version of this is like, go Notre Dame hoof cats or whatever. 

I don't know, I'm not a sports person. But it's like now that you've heard about how I know about Notre Dame hoof cats, let me tell you about my B2B SaaS tool. And then you scale, right? And so the V.2 .version of this are people inserting themselves in that same workflow. So instead of accounts, we have signals. It's like who's hiring or who's changed their website or whatever. It's about a change in the world. 

But the problem is that the more success those signal platforms have, the worse it is for you. And at the very end of the day, that is still, I saw you. Hey, Dale, I saw that you became the CRO. Isn't it great that you care about pipeline now? 

My company does CRO lead selling. It's so bad. Hi, because you're a CEO, you must struggle from this. 

Yeah, yeah. And so you can see that all these lead gen agencies are doing, it's just the worst. So that's like kind of where one group of V.2 .0 products is evolving. The other sort of V.2 .0 products are SDRs to personalize. And these are the AI SDRs that you see where, so they don't give a shit about the accounts that you go after, right? And your account selection is probably garbage in the first place because this is a quote, we shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us. Well, how do you get accounts? Well, you get accounts in Zoom info and Apollo. That's where you get accounts from. 

That's the only way to get accounts. And so you're trapped into this world where you have to filter the world. You have to say, okay, well, why is this relevant to this person? And you actually don't know because, you know, as we said earlier that the list is the message, because you didn't define the list. And even with AI, you can't filter your way out of this problem because you're saying to AI, hey, take all of these possible companies from, you know, this random list and tell me why they're related to us. So that's kind of the world in which we live in and why these new products are actually selling us the same false bill of goods. And I have a better way to do it, but I'm going to pause there to give you guys a chance to like flesh out the current way if you'd like to say any more. So the list, I think this is, I agree, this is what people get wrong, right? And what I see and what we see over and over and over again, Jordan, is, all right, we sell revenue architecture software to B2B SaaS companies to help them forecast. Let's load every B2B SaaS company, every VP of RevOps, every CRO in our sequence, send them all the same message that may be slightly different based on the job title, and tell them that we could solve their forecasting problems. And we wonder why it doesn't work. You talk to a lot more folks than we do. 

Are you still seeing folks that are like this blatantly wrong about it or have we started to see change? And then I'd love to, like you said, get about like, what the hell do we do differently? Because this is not going to work. And if you think it does, you've got bigger issues. Well, I mean, some of this is the pool in which you swim in. And a lot of people are swimming in acidic pools because of the nature of their company. They did not choose to do that. 

You know, a bunch of two-year-olds got in that pool and started pissing. And so, and these are B2B horizontal SaaS companies. And the reason that they have the hardest challenge here is that they are a mile-wide than an inch deep. And so they are basically selling against competitors who are an inch wide and a mile deep. 

And so this is sort of a classic crossing the chasm. But really, you can't say anything great to, if you have five personas and six use cases and seven industries, you actually don't have anything interesting to say to any of them. The best thing that you can do is lead with a message about you. And a customer will never see themselves in a message about you. They will see themselves in a message about them. 

And so let's talk about a specific counter example of this and why this company can do it. So Kyle Norton is a good friend of mine, Sierra Loner. Love, yeah. We've spoken to him a couple times. Incredible human. Yeah, he is a great... I mean, he's Canadian. So he had a cheat code there. 

You know, I think gosh darn is the worst curse word he's ever said. And so, so Kyle, he's also restaurant owners. CEO didn't say restaurant owners and by the way, mining companies and by the way, Crest and like its restaurants, right? Well, and so Kyle's already started in a better place, which is great. Now what he has to do is his knowledge can compound, not fracture. Now, if he starts learning things about restaurants and plumbing companies, his knowledge fractures. And then from plumbing companies, if he focuses on HVAC companies, his knowledge continues to fracture. 

It doesn't compound. But restaurants, his knowledge compounds. So one of the things that they do is they help reduce fees for DoorDash and Uber Eats. And so, so it turns out that he has public data. He can identify a segment, which is so in this new world, we start with a segment. 

And so for for Kyle, that segment is restaurants that have higher prices on DoorDash and Uber Eats. Okay. So, so now we have a segment. That's the first piece. 

It's restaurants that are listed on DoorDash and Uber Eats. Now we need to find the data. So fortunately, in this case, the data is public. So we have now we have an understanding of their menu prices on their website and DoorDash and Uber Eats. So a segment is usually two to five really specific things about your ideal customer profile, about a subsection of your ideal customer profile. So now we have data and a segment. The first two segment data. The nice thing is these two things together define the message. 

So Kyle can send a message because he's compiled that data. Adam, your pad tie is $52 on Uber Eats. It is $43 on DoorDash on your menu. 

It's $12.55. My guess is that one of the reasons that you're doing that is to cover the fees that they charge you. And but did you know that we have found that if you remove yourself from those platforms, we can. Those customers will still order. 

And here is the data that proves it because it turns out they have loyalty to your pad tie, not to Travis at Uber, whatever. Whoever I don't forget this is COs now. But now Kyle may not send a message like that, but you get an idea of that's possible now. So the segment, the data and the message, then the accounts are easy. 

The people are easy from there and you can scale that. So Kyle wants to do something else here. He can define another segment and that means that he can orchestrate this whole thing programmatically. 

By the way, this is not from insider information. I'm just. I used to sell in the restaurant space. I know Kyle. I know Adam Guild. I know that whole thing super well. 

You're a follow-up and your talk track is perfect. Yeah. So yeah, but I mean, I know that they partner with like Uber Eats and DoorDash. 

So they're not having aggressive messaging here. But you get an idea of that, define the segment. The segment then will give you the data. Then you can find the data. The data plus the segment is the message. 

That'll define the accounts. And then you can scale that segment by segment. But this is about going an inch wide and a mile deep. 

And then replicating that. So if you're a horizontal SaaS, you have to do something that is really hard for CROs to do. You have to focus. And it's the right thing for the company and it's the wrong thing for your job because you're going to go to the company and go to the CEO and say, we're going to only focus on this segment. 

He's like, but we have thousands of different, why would you focus just on one? And if that segment fails, they're going to get fired. But it's the right thing to do to build this engine. 

And this is why this is so much easier to do with vertical SaaS companies because they don't have to make that fundamental choice. So I can't wait to see what Dale comes back with on this one because I think you lost him with that level of intelligence. No, no, no. I'm the boss. Nick Byrne. Jesus. Dale was ironing his shirts before this podcast. 

You're in a hoodie. I don't think you've got a right to say that. He was, but I have to say it. And I'm going to say it every episode because I can. I got lambasted because someone doesn't know us when they're like, you have to stop beating up on Dale so much. 

I don't beat up on Dale. This is our dynamic. We give each other crap. Like it's not personal. 

Y'all, it's who we are. He tells me I'm good at EA all the time. Dale, take a shot. Dale, take a shot. Yeah. 

I'm not taking a shot. But one of the things I was thinking about as you were saying a lot of this, and it actually comes back to one of your first comments, people actually don't know what their real ICP is. And so you can do all of this work behind the scenes afterwards. 

And they're using an ICP from 2000, you know, from five years ago, even three years ago. We're working with some clients right now and you go back through it and even going through these iterations is taking three, four months to really narrow in and focus in because it's like, I want a, especially going horizontal, I want something this big. And it's like, well, why don't you get really good at this thing? And then once you get really good at this thing, then you can expand out and leveraging what you were just saying from like a really niche messaging, like really targeted value prop. There's two things that we see a lot. 

The ideal customer profile buying persona are offer. They're just not good. And they, there's no real true value that they're delivering. Like, I am the best, you know, I can generate the best ABC for you. And it's like everybody else in the market says that. 

So you just become noise. So I'm curious as you talk to people through your process, how do you help them through the really targeting the right people at the right, you know, because that's where it all starts. People buy from people. That's why companies who invest in meaningful connections win. The best part, gifting doesn't have to be expensive to drive results. 

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And I think about this by basically if you interview the person that has had a conversation with the most number of customers, you don't even have to do all this I.C .P. stuff. They know it. It's about getting it out of them and it's about getting out of them and and letting go of how we determine that account. So for example, I had a conversation with a company that sells into they sell security questionnaires. 

So if you are defining if you're doing SOC2 or whatever, you have to answer 300 questions. And one of their unique benefits relative to the market is like we know that these are accurate. And all these other AI platforms, this is just a feature of theirs. And by the way, it gets things wrong. 

And for this thing, you can't get it wrong. Like because you don't you don't have any savings. If you have to look at every line about what the AI did, you don't have anything. And he said something really interesting. He said, well, who do you actually people recognize security and their mother and everyone? Yeah, and like that is the people that can say, but I did. 

I pushed it and I said, well, what do you mean this? We're FedRAM certified because that opens up a new market. They're like, we're not that certified because one customer came to us. They'll fill it out. They're like, no, you're going to go to market and we're the choice. 

Just say something. Imagine that you weren't limited by Zoom Infos. categories. Imagine that you had a tool, I don't know, let's call it a text generation tool where you can put information and that text generation tool, let's call it chat. 

And just for, let's just throw some random letters, let's call it chat. These things together mean that you can send an AI agent out to a website and say, yo, go look at their website. Do they blog about this? Is it feature prominently on the home page? Is it in the pricing page? Is it proudly FedRAM certified? Do they have a government section on their website? 

Did their CRO come in? He said, our key strategy this year is to sell into the government or to sell into blah, blah, blah. And an AI agent can tell that. Well, now you can imagine people that their organization is revolved around selling into other organizations that are like security is our number one actual concern. And by the way, if you sell to the Defense Department, they're going to think about SOC2 differently than Salesforce, right? The Defense Department is like, no, no, no, no, we're going to, by the way, the liability is on you. So if China breaks into this thing, you're going to jail. And that's like a much different thing. It's like Salesforce like, well, you know, we're going to be upset, but there's a breach every now and again, you know, like, that's just a different thing if it doesn't make it to the contract. 

So that would be an example of how you can find the segment. And we didn't, I didn't do a bunch of it. And I said, like, how many customer conversations? I said 600. And I do want to talk about a message as someone paid or receive. I can do this for me because I've done enough work here. It's harder to get to a message that someone paid or receive, which is a different sort of bar here. 

I was selling to, I love that term though. Like, think about it. We all get a shit ton of messages every day. How few would I be like, holy, holy crap, I would pay you to send this to me because you're going to solve a real problem. 

And I want to talk to you now. Yeah, exactly. And by the way, the, I should get the dates right later in San Francisco, I'm going to be doing this live at a clay club San Francisco. So I should, I should pump that event. That's, that's going to be a Tuesday, February 25th, six to nine PM. I hope you can make it. And then we're going to do this whole process in the end Thursday, March six, that five 30 PM in the Presidio of San Francisco can involve go to market. So we're going to like go to market at an hour from a company. 

But, but let me give you an example of a message someone paid or see. We were going after roofing companies. And when we went after roofing companies, we wanted to be able to sell them on a data set that is recently sold homes and owners of those information that actually need new roofs. And so I could send a message that says, Adam, did you see that 123 Main Street just sold recently inside of the listing description? It mentioned a $10,000 credit for a new roof. 

This is just a mile away from you. Here is the realtor's contact information. I don't know the homeowner personally, but you might want to go door knock on them. 

If this level of insight is something that's interesting to you, I have about 300 other homes in your area that specifically mentioned roofing credits for their just sold homes. Would you like it? It's like, I've given you an actual home where money is actually allocated. It is actually near you. 

I've given you the realtor's contact information and that's laid. People were like, what like they were all like, why did you do this? Like this is, and you know, in some cases, people even assume the value. They're like, well, we only do shingle work. And so they didn't respond to me and they actually gave me another insight, which is like, oh, the type of roof matters. So that's another filtering criteria, which is like, okay, well, if they don't have shingles, don't do filter out those people. But that's a message that someone actually paid to receive. 

And I think you posted about that on LinkedIn because I remember something very similar to this, but that is real data, right? Like, if you, holy shit, if you can do that for me and you're giving me value in the message, like here, go chase this one if you want to for free, have fun. I would pay to receive that. If you could email and our business is different, right? But like, if you can email me and be like, hey, this person is actively looking for help with their go to market, we have validated it, we know they're willing to spend money on it. This is real. 

Go call them. And I could do this 30 times over. I would pay for that message all day long. 

Yeah, yeah. And this, this works to be to be fast to you just have to be a little bit more creative. So things in the past where I used to sell jobs data, which is just like jobs intelligence. And so one of the things that we did is we use the AI agent to for the company we're looking at, we found their competitors. Then we queried our own data set to find who had a historical job description that mentioned one of those tools, and where we thought they were coming up on an expiration date. So I from my research, X, Y, or Z are competitors of yours. And we did some additional filtering. We think that these five companies and these five people are these companies are about to expire their your one of your top competitors. Here's why we think that and here is both the phone number and mobile email of the decision makers at those companies for you to run a rip and replace. 

Was this I hope this is useful to you. I don't even need I don't need a crazy call to action, right? It's like the call to action is the data and that's a right that you would pay to receive. Yeah, and I think that's that's very interesting. Like the call to action is the data, like if your data is good, and you're drawing value, it is the data. One place I've been thinking as you've been talking is we get into a place that we've wanted all this data so that we can create, you know, personalized messaging and all this other kind of stuff. 

Now it's almost like, we need to have what you're calling the filter to the data. Because it's like, there's so much noise out there that what data do you trust? What data should you be using? 

What data? And I think it goes back to defining ICP and value prop. Like it all goes back to like the one on one basics. But how do people go from so much data, like they're filtering in all this data to like getting to like the exact data we should be using when we're sending this this information out. 

This is a great question. And you need to find not filter the world. So let me give you an example. And this is a huge thing. 

It's like, you can't start with a list of accounts from Zoom info, you just can't do it. In most cases. So let's talk about find versus filter. So I was helping a company that sells to flood restoration companies, which is kind of, you know, so it should be so specific, right? Well, it turns out little names. 

Yeah, super niche. So it turns out when you search for these people on Google Maps that it comes out with people that do all sorts of things. Like it's actually Google Maps is categorization, which is usually pretty good was not good in this case. 

So I asked them a bunch of questions, like what do they have in common? It's like, well, you know, this is regulated work, which is you can't come in and say I remove mold from your house, because that is a health hazard. So you have to be regulated turns out by the IRC, which is just a body that maybe I got the name wrong. 

But there is a regulation body that has to approve this. And on their website, they have a list of all this exact IRC certified companies that we could scrape. And so now you can imagine, I know for sure that you are a flood restoration company. 

That means they already have something to save you. I know that you're a flood restoration company. Now, in their case, they're there, you know, there's not many people that sell software into this niche. And so the the bar for their message is much, much, much lower than you and I, which, you know, we have to be like, here's a $100,000, please take my meeting. But in that case, it's like you're clearly certified. 

You have to respond immediately. And, you know, so they could exist with literally just persona level messaging, because the fact that there was software in the industry is like, oh my gosh, we're so far behind, we don't have that. But in that case, where we started was we scraped this list of the spoke companies that was already compiled and filtered and because there was an actual standardized body on the web that said X, Y, or Z. And that's where it usually is. It's usually in a place of the web where someone's already done this extensive work to filter and structure that information for you. I love that. 

I think that I think the find not filter is like exactly the right thing. It's not easy. It's not easy. But I think if you want to succeed, this is the only way to do it. So Jordan, I think the other question, how do people get started? 

Like how do you get started doing this so that your outbound matters? Yeah, I think I'm going to give a Donald Rumsfeld quote is like, there are no knowns, there are no unknowns, and there are unknown unknowns. And that's the kind of problem here. I think he just said that to justify the record, but it was actually a good idea. I don't understand that. 

It's like exactly got to go. It's the unknown unknowns that people have a lot of problems with. And so the very best place to start is just have a conversation with customers where your knowledge compounds, not fractures. 

So what is the like use case persona industry where you can have conversations to three, four of your brightest customers and let they will guide the way. And they're going to say things that you would never expect them to say. And if you don't leave with like, how was our product awesome, etc. You're going to ask questions like, what else did you evaluate? Like, why do you think, you know, I don't and you want to like throw pretty controversial statements. I don't think our product is really the best in the market. Like, do you agree? 

No, no, no, it is. And having them defend that. Or like, you know, most people think X, Y or Z, but some people think A, B or C, what's your take? So really getting them to elicit, you know, they spent their whole lives getting to the place where they're about to where they bought your software. So they have all of this understanding that you don't. 

And you need to understand that and you need to listen for it. And so a perfect example is I just did a build an IH in an hour webinar. And they were going, there's a, we were, we did this for a company that sells mining, like mining data. I said, and I, and I use chat to VT and chat to you like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I asked one question to the person that knows the account. 

And I said, well, where are you like a 10x better than your competitors? It's like, well, rural mines like that are specifically for precious metals. I'm like, who the hell needs that? And it's like, well, it turns out that there are cases where these, it's like PE traders and they're making decisions based on the price of metal in these rural mines. And that's where they have just like hourly data. And so you can send it because you know that, you can send a message that's like, Adam, these five mines in rural Nebraska, the price in the last hour spiked by 3,400%. This data is not going to hit the market for another day or two. This is probably relevant to you because I see that you recently have been making a lot of commodity trades on copper mines in rural Nebraska. This is just one data point. 

Would getting this data every day change how you invest your money? Like that's the message that someone paid to receive. Now, where else, how else would you do this? 

Right? Like, well, if you tried to go after all PE firms that trade in metals, you wouldn't know what to say. But if you really get down to what is your huge differentiator, where and then how do your customers see that huge differentiator, those two things together are usually enough for you to build a segment. But you have to have conviction of that. And then the how is a different question. And this is where the AI agents can come in line. But start backwards. Start with what is the best message that you could receive, you could send by hand. 

If you could spend on Adam, if you could spend on the amount of time researching on the web and writing one message to one customer, what is the message that you would write that they would pay to receive? And then you can reverse backwards into how you turn that into a system. Yeah, that's not easy. And there you have it, y'all. It's that simple. I'm trying to build, so I am building a second course, which is who to target what to say, to try to help people with prompts to get them there. 

What is the process to get you there? And I really believe a process over prompts, it's like one of my core convictions. And specifically as you interact with AI, that you are the guide, not the river. And so you need to have insights on your customers to be able to help guide these large language models to say, this is exactly what I'm looking for. And then they will perform beautifully for you. 

But you have to have a new one understanding with customers, you have spent a lot of time listening to them. And so anyways, my upcoming course, it'll be about $1,000. And I'm going to try to teach people how to do this. And it's hard to get it out of my head in a structured way. That's what I'm working on. 

Yeah, that I could definitely see. All right, Jordan, we are at 30 minutes, but we're going to go a couple minutes earlier, a couple minutes late. Let's dive into some rapid fire. 

Yeah, go for it. Early burner night owl. Night owl hands down 100% of the time. And if you weren't in tech, what other trade or profession would you be in? I would be, I would actually run the lemonade stand on the Italian coast. I heard Anthony runs it, it's called Lemon Point. And he gets to talk with like tourists all day long and be like an authentic Italian. And he charges half of the price when you're at the bottom of the mountain. 

And he's not trying to make a dollar, but he has a beautiful life. That's awesome. I love that. What's your favorite guilty pleasure snack? 

Oh, fuck. Like a cheeseburger. So a cheeseburger or like a smashed burger? 

Because they are different things. Oh, I think gun to my head in and out would probably be the, the, yes. I, so I'm in Dallas now. 

We both live in Florida. I will not move here without stopping it in and out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

And it's just the greatest. I think this would be interesting to you. What's one of your favorite book or podcast that you listen to that the audience should listen to? The bridge, the gap podcast. 

Well, I, I really like AI explained on YouTube. And he like actually goes and reads the first party research and translate it. And, and he's got an English accent, which is also quite wonderful. And so I really, really enjoy. Yeah, I really enjoyed that. I also kind of, this is not really related to revenue, but I love the Ezra Klein podcast. 

And I have a, every once in a while, I'll listen to a good, this American life because I really liked the way that Ira Glass will make a nothing burger into a story. You never know that time when you wake up in the morning and pull your sheets off. This is a story about waking up. You know, it's like, wait, what? Like so I just, I love how he can turn anything into like a really, really beautiful story. And I think that that is like a skill that every marketer should have. What, what's the first app you check when you wake up? 

And I'm super curious on this because you're not like a revenue leader. So I'm curious what the first app you check is when you pick up your phone. Well, at night, it's always a calendar to see what I have to do in the morning. 

Um, yeah, uh, you know, it's not as good for podcasts, but I play a game. Like I'll, I'll distract myself. I've been really into like last war and it's just, it's mindless. It's just like tapping away because a lot of the things that I do are is like so, so, so focused work. And I feel that I have to like mindlessly do mindless things when I'm done with this. 

So it's not, it's the truth, unfortunately. I wish I could say it was like, oh, something better than that, but probably the podcast app is just right now. Last one is we wrap up dream vacation destination. It could be Italy, but, well, I mean, I just, I just worked from Italy for a month and I really have to say that like Cinque Terre is like one of my favorite places. I, I, you get to walk, people are impassioned about food. No one has a job there, which is like kind of amazing. And so I sort of, I sort of love that. San Francisco is the place that I'll be until I retire, but then I think I'm going to swing the other way. And it's like, well, what are you doing today? 

It's like apparel spritz baby, like nothing else. So I think I'm going to go really hard at this. And then eventually I'll end up on the Italian coast. There you go. Awesome. Jordan, I appreciate you joining them. And so much knowledge. 

I would love to pick your brain privately and learn, learn all sorts of stuff. I think that every one of our clients, forget our client, everyone who's running go to market motion suffers these problems. And if you don't put the time, effort and money into solving it, you are not going to survive in modern day go to market. The day that you, the days of doing things, the way we did them are no longer working. Nothing changes if nothing changes. If you don't take anything away from this podcast, other than that, take away everything that Jordan said on you need a message that someone is willing to pay for. That should be your goal. When you build outbound, when you hit that send button, would someone pay for this? Where could people find you, man? Well, I have to say this last thing, which is that invest in an experimentation engine. 

The faster that you can run experiments, the better you can get at this. So people can find me on LinkedIn, LinkedIn.com, slash in slash Jordan Crawford, BlueprintGTM.com is my website, Jordan at BlueprintGTM.com is where you can send me an electronic mail. And I am just so grateful to be invited to speak here today. Thanks Adam, thanks Phil. Thanks Jordan for showing you. Thanks so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. 

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