Episode #89 Cold Email Is DEAD… Unless You Do This | GTM Strategies That Actually Work ft. Harris Kenny

Are you struggling to make outbound work at scale? You’re not alone. In this episode, we sit down with Harris Kenny, CEO of Outbound Sync, to break down why outbound often fails and cold email is dead — and what top-performing teams are doing differently.

We dive into:
 • Why syncing outbound tools to your CRM is a game-changer
 • The cold truth about cold email in 2025
 • When to hire an agency vs. build in-house
 • How AI is shaping the future of sales (and why agencies aren’t going anywhere)
 • Tactical examples of outbound that actually WORK

If you’re in GTM, RevOps, or sales leadership, this episode is packed with insight you won’t find anywhere else.

Follow Harris - https://www.linkedin.com/in/harriskenny/

PS - huge shout out to Sendoso for sponsoring our show.

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🎁 Lastly, we have a gift for you! We’re tired of seeing people getting critical GTM components wrong. Need help with your ICP, Buyer Persona, and Value Prop? Tired of the shitty “resources” people “give away” to gain followers?

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Transcript

This is Bridge the Gap powered by Revenue Reimagine, the podcast where we dive into all things revenue. Each episode we bring you the top founders and go-to-market leaders to challenge how you think about growth and help you bridge your biggest go-to-market gaps. I'm Adam Jay. And I'm Dale Zwizinski. 

As always, thanks for hanging with us. There's a million ways you can be spending your time and we're grateful for you choosing to spend it with us. Be sure to check out our newsletter if you want the show notes and tactical advice on how to bridge your GTM Gaps. Let's get to it. 

Welcome back to another episode of Bridge the Gap powered by Revenue Reimagine. We have Harris Kenny with us today who is the founder of Outbound Sync. I think it's a super cool tool because it solves the problem that I'm dealing with right now. How do you attribute revenue, sync activities, manage blocklists from tools like Smart Lead and Instantly that do outbound at scale that don't historically tie back to your CRM? Prior to that, Harris ran a Gold Tier HubSpot Solutions Partner Agency. We can certainly talk about that because we do that as well. 

It was one of the first clay experts and spent past life scaling hardware companies and selling ERP consulting. Man, you've done a little bit of everything. Welcome to the show. Thanks. Good to be here. Yeah, I bounced around. It took me some time to figure out what I'm doing, but I'm also not young. So that helps. Sorry. I mean, Dale's old. I mean, you're not young. I'm not young. Dale's old. 

I'm old. It's definitely true. Although now that I shave my beard off, I'm a little bit younger. 

Well, if you... One of our clients did send me a Slack yesterday being like, oh my God, Dale looks so young without his beard. True story. That's great. Well, if you follow Brian Johnson, maybe we can extend our lives a bit here. Let's see how it goes. Yeah. Second person this week to tell us about that. True story. 

Yeah, I followed Brian a little bit. Adam's like, who is that? So we're trying to get Adam into the 21st century and taking care of himself, but we'll see how that progresses. Jim, every morning, man. 

Every morning. So, Harris, one of the big things that we've always been struggling with, and actually the market's struggling with, is like up on that scale or top of funnel or like any of these things that we talk through. And it's a problem that you're trying to help solve with partnerships like Incidently, Smartly, etc. 

Where should people be starting to think about up on that scale? Is it as they're building? Is it at the product market fit? Where is it in the lifecycle of building an organization? 

Yeah. Well, I think where we're... So a little bit about up on sync. So we've got hundreds of companies using our product now. We've got... We've synced tens of millions of records. So we do have some visibility into where we're seeing things working. 

And I do think about this. I split this in my head of, are you working with an agency or not? Because if you're working with an agency, it's going to fundamentally change the types of plays you can run and what you can do with the data and frankly, how quickly you can move versus if you're a direct team and the types of resources and the types of people. Required to be successful. 

Why is that? Why do you split it that way? 

Well, I mean, I just see a really big difference between like the... On our side, the amount of time it takes for a team to move forward, for example. Now, just like to get their bearings, we have a company we've been talking to. They are... 

I don't want to be name names. Y'all just say they're using a conventional sequencer and they're like, look, we're landing in spam. We know we need multiple domains. We know that instantly solves this problem for us. That they liked instantly for their use case. We know we instantly solved this problem for us. 

The problem is we went to go cancel our contract and they auto-renewed us automatically. So you have this variety of things that a traditional team has in place. Now, in this situation, they have a really strong internal person. I would say that is the X factor of like, do you have an internal person that themselves can thrive this entire conversation across the internal org around like, hey, here's the problem. They need to be able to pick up and learn really quickly about deliverability and these other things and have the guts to be like, what we're doing right now is not working. 

I'm going to be the one to say it out loud. And then through the research, there's a lot they have to be able to do and then get that will. If you're working with an agency, it's not the agency themselves, they bring a lot of skills, but also the decision to hire an agency seems to suggest like a decision has been made, a commitment has been made, let's bring in someone to solve this. And so we just find that companies that do that are able to get stuff off the ground faster. I'm not saying it's better or worse, but so then the question of like, at what stage do companies do this kind of outbound that like starts to affect it because if you're working with an agency and you have a really clear goal of like, I want to test my positioning or I want to test a couple different ways to, then you can do it earlier with different expectations. But if you want pipeline generated, yeah, there's some traction, there's some offers. 

You have to know what to put into clay to get the right lists, to know the numbers, the dial, and then you do the validation, you have reps that can do calling. It's definitely becoming a game for companies with more resources I think versus more. 

I think what I heard you say, I think what I was hearing you say was like the agency model will just get you there faster, more efficiently, more effectively versus like if you're doing it internally, it's almost like a side product. 

Yes, it's like, okay, do all your other work and then like, oh, by the way, we also have to figure out this up on that scale type of motion. So it's a matter of, and I say this a lot with like sales and marketing, like salespeople can help you generate awareness outside, but it could take you 12 to 18 months to do that where marketing may take you 6 months. And I think that analogy is probably the same as like if I run an agency, they do this all the time, they know all the modifications, because things are changing so quickly, right? It's like, just because it worked today, like a month from now, whatever you did today is not really going to be working, and you guys are on top of that all the time. 

Yeah, I think the side project analogy is like exactly right. Because that's what I mean, I look, I get an email at 8 o'clock from, you know, a head of sales, an email at 8 o'clock at night being like, okay, I did a bunch of research about how to set up domains, like can you tell me about de-chem? 

And it's like, you obviously just push your kids to bed. I know because I did the same thing, right? And now we're both getting online for a second shift. So I think the side technology is exactly right. Our second shift, that's funny. Yeah. 

Does outbound at scale work? And let me piggyback off that for a second. So there's a gazillion AI tools out there, right? There's a gazillion agencies out there all claiming, you know, we could enrich everything amazingly through Clay, and like we're going to get you this great data, but you're still going to send out 10,000 emails, and you're going to get a 1% response rate. Like is outbound at scale worth investing in? And I understand you're a little biased based on your product, but like does it work? 

And if so, where? Yeah, well, I would say with our product, sometimes customers use our product to disprove that, you know, to say, oh, Appan is not working. And that's okay too. But I mean, my core believes... 

I mean, sure, as long as they pay the subscription, I don't particularly care what they use it for. Yeah, yeah. Right. And that's part of why we're going to be looking at moving it, supporting other channels, is because it's like maybe email isn't working, or maybe this, you know, and so it's like, okay, what about LinkedIn? 

What about phones? But I mean, like our core, my core thesis has been like, look, we had the period of the early sequencers for whatever, five to seven years, and outreach created the category, I think, and sales often these other players. But that like one rep in one seat with like, that has one Zoom info seat, and they have one sequencer seat. With one domain. With one domain. 

From the main domain, with one CRM seat. That era is over, basically. I'm not saying that people aren't continuing to use all of those tools, but the use case is different than it was before. And so the question is like, what is this new, what is different now? And when people switch to different tools to get deliverability edge, or to get like different better data, maybe more segmented custom data with clay, there is still this like phone home problem. And so I think the main thing that we're trying to solve right now is that people chose new tools to get an edge, but then those new tools on the edge don't phone home. And so they can't say confidently whether it's working or not. And even like, what is success? Is it positive reply right away? 

What if outbound influences a lead that converts through another channel like paid ads? Does that count? Does the app get credit for that? 

Well, we don't know because there's no record that we emailed them in the first place. So that's kind of where I think where we sit, where the market is. I think the market is very early in a lot of ways for these new tools, in my opinion. So I hear you. 

And I hear everything you're saying and I agree with you. But where does outbound at scale work and where does it? Like I'm looking for a very definitive answer. If I'm a series A or series B or series C or I have three BBRs, she thinks I'm talking to her and I'm not, where does outbound at scale work? And to piggyback, I love that you said we can be used to prove that it doesn't because I'm a big believer there's places where it doesn't and you have to be able to track the activity to know that it doesn't. I can give you some examples of people that are real companies that I see in a lot of their bookie meetings right now. You don't even have to name them. Yeah, yeah, I won't name them because I can't. 

I have this. But like, so okay, there's, there are like busy, there's types of products where customers are repeat buyers. So there's a company that does, well they've talked about this publicly, so I can say this publicly. An agency that we work with called C17, they work with a merch company called Jamio. And so Jamio is a little different because they have really, really high quality merch. 

Like if you want to buy merch, most of the companies, like it's really cheap and it's flimsy and this is hard to get good stuff. And so they take up like a more of a higher value approach. And so what C17 did was they developed a really good offer. So okay, so it's like ingredient one of why this is working is that companies are repeatedly buying merch. 

So if they're not buying it right now, they might be buying it in three months. Right? So that is like a prerequisite to this being a thing. There's like an acknowledgement of a problem. There's typically a set-of-side budget. 

They're kind of, they're in motion. There's a little bit of friction because they've got like a commitment to maybe a certain vendor and they've got like a preconfigured shirt design with an existing shirt printer. So okay, we got to get them to consider doing something else besides clicking the reorder button. And so what they did was they developed a good offer. And the offer was we'll develop, our designers will develop for you a custom, they call them jams, but like some custom looks basically with some of our higher quality merch, some of our fleeces and things like that. 

If you're game, like I can send it to you and you let me know if it looks cool. And it's like a very, very low risk offer. And so they are crushing it on that campaign. I mean, they're booking a ton of meetings and it's extremely successful for them because it's something compelling. People like to see their brand used in different ways. A lot of times the person that's designing the shirts and ordering the shirts, like they're looking for new ideas on how to do things and they want to keep it fresh. 

They don't want to just do the logo with like the founder designed version of the merch or just like the logos, like 300X blown up on the front of the shirt and that's the whole shirt. So that's one example where I can tell you for a fact that's winning. So yeah, we can go through some more other people that I'm seeing winning that are combining multiple channels. So they're using paid ads plus email or they're using phones plus like some LinkedIn touches and things like that to find the right channel for the right person. Because not everyone's on the phone. What you just said is key though. It's not just email. 

And I tell this to everyone. Outbound at scale I think has its place. There is a place for brand awareness. I'm also a big believer the goal of any campaign is to book a meeting, right? It's to get a response. Yes or no to get a response and ultimately to book that meeting. And I'm super curious your thoughts on this. If you go start doing outbound at scale and we're going to email 10,000 people and hope that we're going to get great response rates and they're going to book a meeting and all we're going to do is email them. You're going to be fucked. 

Pardon my French. If we do outbound at scale and couple that with a multi-channel approach and we add in phone calls, we add in LinkedIn and we make sure that those emails are high value. That's where I think your outbound at scale has its place. But if you are just outbounding, barring very few niche industries, do I think people are going to be like, holy shit Harris, I have been waiting for your email for the past three months of my life. 

The timing is perfect that you sent this and I cannot wait to get on the phone with them. Yeah. Well, so okay, let me drive a bus. I agree, but let me drive a bus through that except the 

industry thing because I do think there are a lot of industries and I will also say like geographic markets 

where the recipients are less, let's just say cynical maybe or less like fatigued without reach where we do have agencies that are using alternative data provider sources like scraping Google Maps directly and going to other places that state scraping like public databases of business registrations and different types of like liquor tax registration, restaurant, whatever things like that where they are succeeding with single channel. But like others, we have a customer where they sell the contractors and like a lot of those contractors, they don't even have websites at all and they're using a Gmail address kind of thing. But then if you find them on Angie's list, you see, oh, actually this is a very good roofing company that has tons of reviews and they could totally use this product. So yeah, I mean, I think that specialized industry like what does that mean that can also mean different geographic markets. 

I know that we have some agency partners in Europe who are absolutely printing money because they're sending their cold emails in Dutch to people that speak Dutch. And it's like you turn back the clock and it's like it's 2016. And people are like, hey, oh my gosh, like thanks for emailing me. 

This is great. They are treating it like that because they don't ever get emails like that. So it's like the future is here but it's just not evenly distributed. 

So it works outside of B2B tech? Yeah, definitely. Oh, definitely. 

And I think that's, and Dale, I know you're like, dude, let me talk, but that's another thing that I don't think people realize. We work with a lot of tech companies. We talk to a lot of tech companies who see email at scale every day, who see 100 cold calls every day. There's lots of industries out there, even LinkedIn is the same thing where none of this shit exists. 

This is so novel to them that people do respond. Now I'll let Dale speak. Thanks for getting my coffee this morning, man. Let's face it, y'all. Hiring sales talent is a real pain in the ass. Getting a player is key to bridging your go-to-market gap, but it's harder than ever. 

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I think it's beyond that as well. We're back to fundamentals in sales, where do your buyers live? If they live in a place where we're working with a client that they're in the construction industry as well, you'll get them on the phone as much as you can get them on email, because they'll be on job sites or they'll be in the middle of something. You can send as many emails as you want at that point, but it may be a supplemental piece. 

As you're going through, calling them, then sending an email versus email first, then call. It's all about where the buyers live in the space. I want to switch topics a little bit here. What was the prep? 

Why did you say let's build up on the sink? What are the first three things when you were building out the foundational elements of your business that you found challenging that now you can say, good, I put a bow on that and I can move forward off of it? 

Well, the first thing, I was running a HubSpot agency, which we could talk about, really had a great experience being in a HubSpot partner program. We were also doing outbound, because I was originally doing outbound. We had these clients that were all using HubSpot and I decided, okay, why don't I join the HubSpot partner program too? 

Originally I was doing sales consulting, like back in April 2019, I went out on my own. We had clients who were asking, hey, can you get this outbound data in HubSpot? I was like, oh, that's a great question. Currently, no, I can't. 

The first question was, does anybody want that? Do people want the outbound data inside of their CRM or not? Because at the time, none of these tools had any integrations. Even now, a couple of them have introduced some very basic ones, but nothing like in all humility, nothing like what we built, because this is all we do. 

We better make it better, otherwise what are we doing? We started to get requests to people being like, hey, I don't want your agency services, I just want the app. That was kind of like that first checkbox, like, okay, yeah, I think there's room for this. Then I think the second big question was, okay, but then our bigger companies willing to use these new tools. 

tools. And at the time, two years ago, that was not clear that that was going to happen. None of these tools had SOC2 type 2. A lot of companies denied that this was even an issue. They were like, we're landing in the primary, we're landing in the inbox, just fine. 

We have what you're talking about. I believed because of a couple of early calls that we had that it would happen and that the mid-market would move in this direction. But that at the time was very unclear. Now that is definitely the case. We have some really great customers. We have quite a few series D companies who are using our product. 

This is this kind of growth hacking movement and has gone mainstream, I think. I think probably the two, two of the big ones. And I think the third question was, okay, people agree they want the system of record, they want it in HubSpot or Salesforce. But then what are they going to do with it? And that, I think, we are still in the process of getting better and better at identifying workflows and automation and how to set up call tasks and how to set up revenue attribution reports. And that, I think, is going to be the long-term project of how do we help them. 

And maybe the scary part is, how do we get too much data? Do we have too much data? And how do we manage all this data? Is there a use for the data? So that is an interesting challenge. 

Oh, definitely. And I think tied into that, it is like what we are starting to see. In the past three weeks or maybe months, I have had three different people asking me about sending this data to Snowflake. Which to me is like, holy enterprise, Batman. 

And the name I have not heard in a long time. And so are we sending too much or are we not sending enough? Because they are considering like a CDP almost. They are like, we are running tons and tons of paid ads and impressions. We have got like an insane amount of data and we want even more. We have this like voracious appetite to push everything into a data warehouse. And then from there, we will take care of sending it where it needs to go. 

And so like on the one hand, you have got the CRM where it is like, okay, the CRM is sacred. We don't want to push too much in here. But then there is this other conversation of like, okay, but what if every single data point is something that we want to capture? So I don't know where that is going to go. It has only come up a couple of times, but it has already kind of given me that. It is already giving like, I think there is more there. It just feels exactly. 

Well then you can just aggregate the data outside of the CRM and then only push in the calculations on what you really want into the CRM versus like the raw data. Like the raw data is an interesting position for people that have a data warehouse. It is a question like, do we push it into a place where we aggregate it and give you the right data points versus having to aggregate it inside the CRM address? 

Yeah. So I think it is still pretty early date. And this is why I am such a believer in agencies. Like this stuff is super complicated. And so anything that is complicated enough, you have got someone to help you think through it, no matter what it is and why. 

You know what I mean? So that is why I am a big believer. Some people are skeptics of agencies in this space. They say, oh, agencies are going to die or this type of agency is going to work is going to die. Or I have seen some software companies be like, we use agencies for our early validation but now we are moving up market, we are moving on. And I fundamentally disagree with that. I do not think agencies are going anywhere. Sure it will change here. 

Well, that is good to know. I really believe that. It is a huge part of our business model and it is a huge core belief of mine. I do not think, this stuff is too hard. Like, sorry, nobody has enough time 

to learn it like an agency does, in my opinion. It cannot be a side project. No. It cannot be a side project. No. You do not have time for it. 

It is too fundamental to go to market strategy. 

But how does AI affect that? And we were just talking to someone the other day who, it was an agency owner for lack of better terms, who very much believes Harris that we are all consultants, agencies, is going to be out of a job in the next three years because AI is going to build the play books, do this, do that. And I have my opinion, which we will talk about in a second. 

But does AI affect anything that you are saying as the next two to three years goes on? Yeah, sure. I mean, I will take the other side of that bet. 

I will bet against that for sure. I think that, I mean, okay. So, this is maybe a hot take or not. But like in a year from now, I think there will be fewer people in, like if you look at the org chart of an organization, I think the number of people in like sales, revenue, go to market rolls, I think that number will be lower. But I think the bend per person will be higher. 

And so, it is possible that there will be fewer agencies or that the average agency has fewer employees or something like that. Like, sure. AI is huge. We use all the time. 

I mean, I was playing around with O1, TechBT O1 where it does like the deep research. It was really awesome this week. I went on like a long walk and I asked it a question. It was going and doing research and was building it. 

It was awesome to ask how to put it together. So, yeah. I mean, I don't think AI is going to fundamentally disrupt the existence of agencies, but I do think it will change them. They will be smaller. Spend will be higher. I think the expectations will be higher. I don't know. 

What do you guys think? I mean, you run an agency. How do you see it affecting your business? 

I think the expectations are already higher. It is why when we started, we started with where operators are not consultants. Those days are gone. 

I think two years ago, you could be a consultant and have someone on a pretty slide deck and people are very happy to pay you tens of thousands of dollars for it. I think that is done. I think AI is going to help with things like an Hubspot agency, for example. 

We are a Hubspot Gold partner as well. How do I build this really complex work? ChatGPT can tell me that and if you are relatively intelligent, you can follow the steps and go build your workflow and it is going to get you 90% there. When it comes to things like how do I develop a comprehensive outbound motion? How do I get the right copy and the right systems and the right reporting? How do I build or go to market motion? How do I define my ICT? ChatGPT will tell you how to build an ICT. I don't think it tells you how to do it correctly, but it will. You still need someone to execute. I also will bet against it. Our moat is not that we have the knowledge to tell you what to do. Our moat is that we can execute and show you how to do it. ChatGPT can tell you what you need, but not how to do it the right way. 

I will go a step further. The second part of that moat is it is going to be wrong the first time you build it. You are going to have to iterate over it based on feedback from the market, internal feedback from the stop process. The stop process, the market is never going to fail. They will tell you whether they think your value proposition is the best or not. If you believe that you have some impact on people and people are like, nope, I don't like that impact, guess what? 

You are wrong. You have to take all that back into account and put it back into the mix to then come up with a new ICT or a new value proposition or ask the next question. When you have kids, the kids are like the three Ys. Do this. Why? Because they said this, why? 

Because finally you get to the real reason on why you want someone to do something. That is in my mind where the agency world or the consulting or the operation world is going to be. As simple as we are working with a founder right he is going through a funding exercise. If you go ask chat, we are talking about CAC and LCB and a bunch of stuff. 

You can go ask chat, what does that look like? Then you go build it in a hub spot or wherever you are going to do it. You are going to look at what the iteration actually ends up looking like. Then you are going to modify it based on, look at it, we only have four records. That is not enough data points for you to give back to an investor. Maybe we need a data set of 10 to 20. Maybe we need to open things up. It is that critical thinking of the plus one and not the initial conversation. I think that will be the value. 

Yeah, I agree with that. I will say, we are talking about the nuance. This is where things get complicated. I think some of these agencies are going to be a little bit of a throwback to system integrator like the earlier days where it is like, look, this is really complicated. You start talking about things like, okay, why, what, what, what, what, this matters for like maintenance and like long term. Okay, fine. Let's say it works. Let's say you are selling doubles and then someone wants to know why this one random property in HubSpot keeps changing. 

You are like, oh, I don't know. Let's go troubleshoot the workflow. Okay, well, the naming convention is just called, you know, Untitled Workflow 2021-01-01 or whatever. You mean you should have a naming convention for your workflow? Yes, you are going to start having like GTM tech debt basically. You know, you have people that, if they don't have enough background and experience that they haven't done this and made the mistakes enough times, they are going to be creating tech debt for the go to market organization basically, where it is like someone is going to have to come in and unwind this stuff and figure out what the heck is going on and why did we give right access to like make end zappier, end N8N, end clay, and then you have like these race condition problems or like these different, all these low code things are like competing with each other, you know. So like the complexity can really get difficult quickly. And again, like to me, these are spaces why you have expertise. 

And also sometimes it's wrong. Like I spent, I have spent time just like for no reason, just for my own like getting out my frustration, like getting back at GPT and being like this workflow action doesn't exist. 

Like stop telling me to do it. It's not real. It's not in Hustbot. This is no, you're completely hallucinating this. 

I've run across that a couple times. So that's like not like, let's say you can get past all of that and let's say like, you know, whatever, you still have this problem of like, how are you designing these systems? And then I think to your point, Jail, like, it's like, okay, but then are you bringing some unique novel idea? And it's that like listening to the customer and then it's a new company who's raising money. Fundamentally, they're going to do something new. You're raising money because you believe something is going to change in the market in the next five years. 

And that's why I raised money to go build that business. So something that's built defined by the past is not going to be able to as effectively write that deck with you, you know, and tell you what metrics are really going to matter and stuff. So yeah, like I love AI. 

I use it all the time. But I don't, I don't know. I don't think I don't think I don't think some of this stuff is going to change or is really meaningfully going to go away. So what is the future hold for go to market for outbound for specifically top of funnel? What's the future hold? 

Let's just talk next six months. What do you see? Because you work with so many companies who are like really top of funnel focus right now. And I would argue everyone's top of funnel focus right now. 

It's the number one problem we hear. What is the future hold? How do you stand out? Yeah, I mean, I think that like in a word, it's specialization. Like, I mean, what we're seeing is people are really specializing in like these different channels and the best way to do it. 

It's like, we're not just making phone calls anymore. We've got like, you know, multiple layers of validation and we're finding we're calling people with a high propensity to respond. And for those we use a power dialer. 

And then for these other lists, we're using a parallel dialer. You know, to me, it's like in every single area is you're going to get more and more specialization in order to get that that like delta to get that to get that return. And so I think most of the market is behind. I think that the next I think that I think that so for people that are behind, I think they've got catching up to do, you know, if they're still like, what's clay, they've got some catching up to do. And then I think for the people that are ahead, I think the next six months are going to be less interesting than the last six months because because they're ahead, they're getting bigger and bigger clients. I'm seeing this companies of 1500 employees like that are now saying, all right, you know, let's set up the smart leak. The next like six months of meetings are going to be like with this CRM administrator being like, okay, so it's really important for our data hygiene that we have the territory mapped like, you know, and, and whereas like they're used to just gripping and ripping, hey, I got a list, boom, we're sending replies are coming into Slack. 

Let me know if you have any questions. Now it's going to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We need this, this, this, this done. 

These are our requirements over. So I think it's like a good thing. It means it's more money is working with bigger companies that have bigger problems. But so to me, that's like, it's going to be a tale of two levels of adoption. The winners growing up, you know, are like having to like, not grow a bit, that's like con-sending, but having to like slow down, I should say, I'm condescending all the time, currently. 

So you're good. Don't worry about winners having to slow down all the time, basically. And then, and then for the, for the laggards, just definitely needing to catch up and just kind of get up to speed because I think, 

like, yeah, I mean, stuff's just going to stop working. It's going to be like, it's going to be like pushing a rope. And so, you know, it's like, you can solve that a lot of ways. You don't need to use our product. You don't need to use, you know, work with revenue, reimagine whatever, there's a million ways to do it. But, but it's not going to work. Some of these things are going to completely stop working at some point. 

That's what I think. Yeah, it's an interesting time, man. It's an interesting time. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for your knowledge. 

I love what y'all are doing. I've seen the product be used. We're using it at some clients. I'm excited to see what the future holds for you. Let's, before we depart as we wrap up, let's jump into some rapid fire here. 

When you look at the go-to-market gap, the stabilization, foundation, repeatability, scalability, what in your mind is the number one thing you need to move from stabilization to foundation? Well, I'm going to, I'm going to, this is not a feed answer. I'm going to have to define a little ignorance here. Help me understand this model a little better. 

Yeah, I just, I don't want to give a, I don't want to give a made up answer. So, said differently, what needs to be fixed? So when we come into companies, a lot of times they don't know what's working and what's not. And we have to, we have to stabilize it, right? Any company needs to be stabilized before you start rebuilding that foundation. 

What is the number one thing that you think needs to be fixed before you could rebuild? I think, I think people are focusing on the wrong metrics. I think like for the most organizations that are pre, before they're ready to lay the new foundation, they're still talking about like open raids and stuff like that. And so it's like, listen, like the dashboard, if you're on that previous model, the dashboard you're looking at, we're probably going to delete like at least half of it basically. And the numbers that you're used to looking at, like we're going to have to stop looking at those, I think. I think that's like the first step. And if there's not alignment on that, then probably not going to get anywhere. Love it. 100%. 

So one of the things that we're looking at a is how often you should revisit those go to market foundations, I think by and persona value propositions. How often do you think you should be revisiting those or pressure testing them at least to make sure you're in the right realm? 

Yeah. I mean, if you look at like Octave by Zach Vibidor, it's a really interesting software. We know Zach well, I spoke with him for an hour. 

Okay, there you go. There you go. Hopefully you were nice to him. He's a nice guy. He's always. Zach's great. Where apart? Okay. He's just condescending to everybody. 

So I don't know. Everyone named him down. This is not coordinated at all, but that's great to hear. So I think, you know, if you talk to like Zach, you'd say, yeah, continuously, we need to have feedback loops on this, and we need to be looking at it and looking at changes in the market. You know, I think if you're not doing that, I don't know, defining a cadence that's sustainable for your organization, whether that's monthly or quarterly or something like that, but it's okay. 

Cool. I think quarterly is probably the right place for most people right now. But that's a lot. 

I mean, that's a huge change versus the deck that marketing gave sale three years ago. A year ago. Yeah. Two years ago. Yeah. I'm working with a client now where the deck is six and a half years old. True story. Harris, early burner night owl. Both, unfortunately. 

First half you check when you wake up in the morning. Um, Slack. Hey, Adam, too. Interesting. 

No, my first app is Aura. Um, favorite guilty pleasure snack. We talked about Brian Johnson. So he's got this cocoa powder. I have that in the afternoon. It's like a little hot chocolate kind of thing with the, with a blueprint cocoa powder. 

Cool. Last one, dream vacation destination. 

Right now, the one that we're talking about a lot in New Zealand, I've been doing Lord of the Rings. I've been telling Lord of the Rings to our four year old and she's like a chester that's our fifth time through the whole series. And so we talk about ring story all the time. She asks me questions about Gandalf and stuff. 

So that's, that's our, and I've wanted to go to New Zealand, you know, for a long time. So that's, I'm going to say that one. Cool. Definitely on my list as well. I've heard that's a very bumpy flight without a whole separate conversation over the, yeah, big water. 

Yeah, big water. Listen, any flight these days that land successfully is a good day. I say that getting on an airplane first thing tomorrow morning. Harris, thank you for joining us, man. Everyone go check out outbound sink. 

Find Harris on LinkedIn. And thanks for joining the show. Thank you guys. I really, I really appreciate what you're doing. This is great. Thanks. Thanks so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. 

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