Episode #90 The #1 Reason Startups FAIL (And No One Talks About It) with Lindsay Tjepkema

Why are most startups crashing and burning before they even get off the ground? It’s NOT what you think. In this episode of Bridge the Gap, Adam and Dale uncover the brutal truth with 3x founder and marketing powerhouse Lindsay Tjepkema.

Here’s what you’re getting:
❌ Why 90% of Founders Are DESTROYING Their Growth Without Knowing It
✅ The ICP Myth: Why You’re Targeting the WRONG People (And How to Fix It Today)
⚠️ The Dangerous “Playbook Trap” That’s Holding You Back
💡 The Real Way to Build a Human-Centric Brand That Can’t Be Ignored

Most founders are making the same fatal mistake—waiting too long to re-evaluate their ICP, Buyer Persona, and Value Proposition. Miss this and your business is toast. 🥀

📌 Subscribe and grab exclusive, actionable insights from our newsletter at https://revenue-reimagined.com before it’s too late!

Follow Lindsay - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindsaytjepkema/

PS - huge shout out to Sendoso for sponsoring our show.

We could not do this without you.

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We are also proudly supported by Pursuit Sales Solutions - Where Hiring A+ Sales Employees is NOT a Pain in the Ass!
https://pursuitsalessolutions.com/revenuereimagined

ZoomInfo is also a proud sponsor - check them out here!

🎁 Lastly, we have a gift for you! We’re tired of seeing people getting critical GTM components wrong. Need help with your ICP, Buyer Persona, and Value Prop? Tired of the shitty “resources” people “give away” to gain followers?

We’ve developed a tool that creates your basic GTM Foundations (ICP, BP, abd Value Prop) for you. Snag it here.

Transcript

This is Bridge the Gap powered by Revenue Reimagined, the podcast where we dive into all things revenue. Each episode, we bring you the top founders and go-to-market leaders to challenge how you think about growth and help you bridge your biggest go-to-market gaps. I'm Adam Jay. And I'm Dez Winski. 

As always, thanks for hanging with us. There's a million ways you can be spending your time and we're grateful for you choosing to spend it with us. Be sure to check out our newsletter if you want the show notes and tactical advice on how to bridge your GTM Gaps. Let's get to it. 

Welcome back to another episode of the Bridge the Gap podcast powered by Revenue Reimagined. We have a special guest with us today. We have Lindsay Chepkoma, who is a three-time founder, 20-year B2B marketer, who now helps founders grow their businesses through story-thought leadership in building authentic human-centric brands. That is not mass emails. That is not just cold dialing, spraying and praying. That is being authentic and building a human-centric brand, which we're going to talk about today. We don't have AI Dale here. We have real human Dale here today. Lindsay, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. 

I didn't tell you that I'm actually AI now. Oh, cool. I like it. Spoiler. This is plot twist. 

All right. Do we have to prompt you properly to get the right answer? Yes, please. Okay. Dale, this is your test. What is the AI prompt? This is tough. 

This is tough. Lindsay, thanks for joining us. Amazing resume. I love the human-centric brand part of it. A lot of our founders and customers and companies that we're talking to, they're struggling with top of funnel. We call it stabilization because we're identifying their ICP, their buying persona, their value proposition. Of those three, where do you believe the customers are failing the most and what are a couple of things they can do to change it up today? 

Give me those three that you listed again. 

I do have my profile. I do have my profile buying persona and value proposition. 

Oh, goodness. Okay. Well, I mean, obviously you can follow up with any of those, but I think if you don't have your who figured out, what are you doing? Then you're going to be lost. 

If you're trying to build something for everyone, if you don't have your, you know, the way that you phrase it, your ICP figured out. I think that's where it all starts. Yeah. 

So we talk about that a lot, right? ICP, what is the proper ICP? Who are you selling to? And I think a lot of people, certainly that we see, and I'm curious your thoughts, confuse your ICP and your BP. Your ideal customer profile and your buyer persona are two very different things. At least in my opinion, are they different to you? And if so, what are the differences? 

I don't know if I'd say they're very different, but I think it's important to call them out. So ideal customer, like I would always say, here's who we're talking to. Like here's our total adjustable market. 

Here's who could buy from us and be very, very happy. And then if you're talking about ideal customer profile, that's a little bubble within it saying, but ideally the ones that we're building for specifically, the one that this is absolutely designed for is these people. And I think your buyer persona is within any one who does buy from us. This is who's making the buyer decision, which might not be the user, which might not be the person who initially finds you, but they're the one who's actually going to be buying the way I think. 

So I'm loving this part of it. And one of the things that we've been asking a lot of guests, and not really founders or the people that are running it, but how often should people be pressure testing this ICP buying persona value proposition? Because I can tell you in the past, it's been like, I don't know, a couple of years, seems fine. 

A couple of years seems fine. I mean, maybe if you're like Eli Lilly or something, like you're like a massive company, but especially for startups, you're talking about growing, it's going to change. Let's say even your company stays completely the same. No pivots, no bumps in the road. Look how much just the world has changed in the last few years, my word. 

I mean, like while I was a founder of a venture backed company, we went through a pandemic and like everything from how we buy, what we buy, where we work, like it all changed. So the answer to your question in my mind is constant. I was talking to somebody yesterday about the same kind of thing, and she said, but like how often should you like think about brand? How often should you talk about messaging? 

How often should you talk about like ICP and pressure testing things? And it's like, think of you as a human being. All like thought that you could just think about your personality one time. Go figure it out and just be like, that's done. 

I'm going to live my life now. Figure it out my personality. Like you're constantly getting feedback. You're constantly responding to how the world is interacting with you. And as a leader, you're going that much further to actually get intentional about it monthly, quarterly, yearly to say like, you know, reflecting on what the world is telling me. The same exact thing goes through your business. You've got to be constantly taking feedback and understanding how those people that you are designing your business for are responding to what you're putting out there. 

Adam, you have to change your personality. That's it. That's why I got out of that conversation. I do. 

Let me ask you a question. So I want to tie this to ICANN. A lot of founders when it comes to changing their ICP, letting go that CRO who hasn't helped close the deal in six months because they're afraid that, you know, something is better than nothing. Scratching a product that just isn't performing. 

A lot of times we're talking with founders and we hear the word ICANN. I can't do that. I can't make this change. I know you have very strong feelings on the word ICANN. Talk to us about how and why founders should shift their mind to ICANN versus ICANN. 

Wow. It's almost like you teed this up because I have a show called Actually I Can. 

I may be the one or the two of us that does a little bit of show prep. 

I appreciate it very much. Okay. So my whole thought process there is that as anyone, as a human being, but I think especially my experience as a founder and talking to and working with a lot of founders is that as your business scales and your business grows, your job changes so much all the time. And unless you've actually been there, you might think you understand, but you don't. 

The pressure, the amount of pressure on you to figure things out and all of the voices, not only in your head, which seem to multiply, but also around you. All of the hey, you should do this. You need to do that. Don't do that to your point. Like you absolutely can't do that. If you're not careful, we'll completely dilute that magical vision that started everything in the first place. 

And so to me, this whole Actually I Can conversation that I've started is like, what got you here was something that is nothing short of magical. Founders are crazy. No. 

Founders are a little crazy. You have to be, right? You have to be. And it's your adventurous and you're not risk averse. 

You're a risk taker and you're a dreamer. Like that's what got you here in the first place. And if you listen to all the real or perceived voices that tell you you can't do something, you're going to be just like everybody else. 

Like best case scenario is mediocrity. So you've got to really, really protect that vision and surround yourself with people and affirmations and just self grounding to be like, this is what we're doing. And you know what? That's all good advice. I'm going to pick and choose what I actually absorb and real and make myself believe that actually I can see this thing through. 

I love it. That's amazing. When you were saying that, it reminds me of Eric Thomas. He's got that mantra. I can, I will, I must. And that was kind of going through my head as you were saying that. As some of those building a company, when they get these pieces of doubt in their mind, what's a couple of things they can do to get the doubt out of their mind? Like what are things like actionable things that they might be able to do? Okay. 

So this, this is where we get kind of woo-woo, but it's not woo-woo because it matters. And the worst thing you can do is just keep moving forward and not, not pay attention to it because again, you'll dilute the magic. So to me, it's journaling. Ironically, I have mine here and I have like hundreds of notebooks behind me because I have a book called The Artist Way. 

Even if you're not an artist, you don't think you're creative. It's really important because it talks about the importance of journaling. Three pages a day. Handwritten. Doesn't matter. 

Nobody sees them. There's no format. There's no magical way to do it. But it, it forces you to check in with yourself. It forces you to, to tap into that, that magical founder vision, that the concerns to talk yourself through the challenges that you're facing because we know this like more, more often than not, you already have what it takes. You already know the answer. 

There's just head trash or other people's voices in the way. So one, journaling every single day, you know, whether you want to spend five minutes or three hours, every single day will help you to see the patterns and actually listen to yourself. And then two, is surround yourself with good people, which is so much easier said than done. People who don't have their own motives and their own agendas for what you're doing with your business, but that really are there to listen to you and to support you. And we'll hear you out and just kind of ask you the tough questions about what you're doing. 

So many people don't ask the tough questions. And it's funny. So we, this morning, we're on the phone with a VC firm out of the UK. And I think one of the things that we really honed in on and Dale could gut check me here, but that I feel they appreciate it is we are going to come in and ask the tough questions. 

There's a lot of people who are just going to show up and be like, oh, you're doing this. Let's do a little tweak and bad. And like your team's perfect and everything's wonderful. And here's your pretty slide deck. And like, if that's who you want, like, I would rather walk away from that business. Because my ethos at the end of the day is like, we want to extend your runway and decrease your burden. 

And I can't do that by blowing smoke up your ass part of my French. We have to be very honest with one another. But you work with a lot of founders as well. How many of them really want to answer those tough questions and how do you shift the ones who don't to understand that they really need to, if they want to get where they're going to get? I think most of them somewhere in there really want to. 

I think the only ones who don't, 99% of the time, they're afraid. That's the thing is that there's so many voices around. There's so much pressure that, and they feel like there's this perception that they're going to be so deep that they can't possibly switch tracks. Or because they have to answer the tough questions themselves, they've got to start tough conversations with somebody else. 

Whether that you use the example of letting go of that chief sales officer that just isn't performing, or maybe standing up to the VC that they desperately need money from, but they know it's not going to work, or they're bored just kind of pushing them around. They know they want to answer the tough questions. They don't feel like they can. 

To answer your question about how do you get them there, I think it's helping them to, again, tap into that, what got you here in the first place. This is about so much more than that tough conversation. And that vision that you believed in enough to start this whole thing deserves to have you get through the mud. You've got to believe in that. 

And I think most people that I work with will get there. Sometimes it just takes a little bit more time. And then it's like, on the other side, it's like, gosh, I wish I had done this sooner. Every time. 

Right. One of the things that you talk about is developing a personal brand for the founder and creating this thought leadership space, like this movement. We talk about this a lot with our clients because we talk about if you want to ever get to a repeatable stage in your go-to-market, you have to have somebody, like people have to find you, they have to understand it, they have to have awareness of what you do, what your ethos is, why you started it. A lot of questions I like to ask sometimes, like what's your origin story? 

Why did this thing come up? When you start pushing this button, because we struggle with this all the time with our founders, some of them will take it on, but I'd say 90% of them are like, I don't want to do LinkedIn. I don't want to do social media. I don't have time to write content. What do you say to those people? And how do you convert them? 

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I run into that a lot too. There's a lot of people who feel like it's braggie and like, oh, I don't want to go talk about myself, and it's like, no, your business needs you too. You're the only one who can tell these stories. 

You're the only one. Okay, so how do I get them to come around? To me, it's actually something really tactical because, yeah, most founders don't have time to sit down and write a creative blog or to spend 10 hours a week in LinkedIn. They just don't. So to me, something tactically that's worked for years and actually led to me starting CASTED was record it. Record it. Founders spend so much time talking. Record it. Get somebody to, I do a lot of things where it's like, I'll talk, we'll talk, and then we'll take me out of the conversation and we'll get you. 

And then that's stuff that you can share and that you can use and that you can repurpose and that we can turn into stuff. You don't need to become a Pulitzer Prize winning writer. You don't need to become LinkedIn famous. Like with your posts, you just need to find a way to capture and share your thoughts because they matter. 

They're the only thing in a super noisy, crazy space that the market is turning into. Your voice and everything that you guys just said about like your unique perspective and your stories, that's the only differentiator you actually have. And so take that, capture it, talk to some of your customers, and maybe that turns into a podcast, maybe that turns into YouTube stuff. Maybe no one ever sees the videos, but that's a really easy, efficient and effective way to get started. 

Well, and I think, so I love all that. The way I like to describe it with thunder sometimes is like, well, if you don't do this and you want top of funnel, like you're not going to get there. 

Like no one else will tell that story like you do. And so if you believe one of your problems is top of funnel, here's a solution. Whether you want to take that solution or not is completely up to you. I won't have for you. But you're saying one thing, but you're doing another. Like talk is cheap. 

Talk is cheap. And I think with the advent of AI and especially how prevalent it's becoming, everyone feels that there's just this magic button, right? They could just all do the exact same thing. And Lindsay, I'm going to read a quote that you sent when we specifically said, you know, what is a topic that's really important to you because it speaks to this, you know, at its core. Businesses don't achieve long-term success by doing what everyone else is doing, hitting the AI button. They transcend by being brave, establishing human connections and holding space for creativity. There is no growth hack or tech stack for success. You have to get brave and audacious and human. 

How do you, as a founder, or someone who coaches founders, how do you get people to resist the urge to hit that easy button and go say, I'm going to go send out 10,000 emails this week and, you know, we're going to get a point one response rate and like, that's good enough, man, because man, we got booked two meetings. But we picked off 9,998 other people. 

Yeah, exactly. OK, so I think that there's the people that I work with already start, kind of have that foundation of knowing that that's probably not the way. Like, early in discovery conversations, people are like, yeah, but what's the ROI? When you do it, when we work on that, I do it like, didn't post how many sales am I going to get? 

I'm like, we're probably not a good... So, you know, but the people that I work with and that do are like, OK, but like AI, like we can AI this. I'm like, well, there are certain ways that you can use AI for sure. So we can make this whole thing more efficient and be a lot more like effective and and do some really cool things and really maximize our time. 

But what I do is I point to, I have a conversation. I'm like, tell me about the most iconic brands you can think of, like Salesforce, HubSpot, Apple, right? Some of the new up and coming like Drift and all the cool things that they did. And they came onto the scene and created this cult like following around in the chat about, no, they got purchased by Salesforce. That's a whole other story. RIP, Drift, Brand. But. And then we talk about it. 

So, tell me the brands that you think are really iconic. And then I ask them, I'm like, do you think did they get to where they are by following someone else's playbook? Like, did they do what everybody else that came before them did? And they were just really, really good at executing someone else's playbook? 

No, they wrote their own. And so is that like, so what are you going to do? Are you going to get really, really, really good at AI prompts? And that's how you're going to become an iconic brand? Are you going to like chase down the, are you going to be the one person who finds a magical playbook from some other brand and you should be like, be super good at implementing it? And that's how you're going to become a billion dollar business. 

But that last one that you just said, listen, I shit on consultants all the time. And we actually don't use the word consultants, but this is the exact reason because and founders are doing it too. 

Dale Smiling, because he knows exactly what I'm going to say. The nineteen ninety five playbook, nineteen hundred and ninety five dollar playbook that I used at company one, two and three is not going to work at company for their, listen, our playbooks certainly have a structure. Don't get me wrong. But there is no playbook that is plug and play. 

Boom, Lindsay, here's my playbook. I used a revenue reimagined. Use it and it's going to go scale your business. Founders need to understand the same thing. You can't copy. Outreach is playbook. Sales loss playbook. Gong is playbook. You're not gone. It ain't going to work. Right. 

Thank you so much for saying that because there are. There are obviously things you can pull from. There are things that I do. I mean, like I, especially now that I'm, I'm working with clients. I'm not like working for a brand. I'm not just like thinking as I go. I had to turn around and be like, how do I package this up in a way that other people can understand other than me just coming in and be like, I don't know, we're going to do stuff and it's going to be great. 

Like I have, you have to like have a way you can talk about it. But the thing is, is that it's, it's, it's not one size fits all. And here's, here's the thing is that people want to see and want to know how working with a consultant, a fractional and advisor, somebody is going, how it's going to go. They want to know what the product is. They want to know what the beginning, middle, end is going to be like. 

And so the more structured the sale is of like, here's the playbook. Here's how we're going to get started. It's going to take X number of days. 

And then here's an example of the blueprint that I'm going to give you. That feels good to buy. But you have to ask yourself, who's going to benefit from this? It's, it's the person selling the thing that they made it really easy to buy. It's, so as, as the person who's buying the thing, you've got to ask, ask the tough questions and say, like, how are you going to customize this to me? Like, how does this, how does this framework adjust? How do you, how do you toggle it to different scenarios? Because certainly I've got a lot of nuances that are a whole lot different than your existing clients. And like, how does this flex to fit? 

And well, in fact, to the conversation we had earlier, like if you're modifying your GTM strategy, call it every three months, you're pressure testing it. So if Gong had built out a playbook or someone built out a playbook, you're only pressure testing it maybe a year ago. Like that's like, and what stage were they in? And like, there's a lot of variables, dimensions in that conversation or strategy that you are not beginning to account. 

Yeah. And so, you know, when you're, when you're trying, that's why we don't just give strategy. That's why we have to execute because our philosophy is what we can give you a process, we can give you messaging, we can build out the best process. But until we go pressure test against the market, like the market's never wrong. Like the market's always going to give you feedback if you listen to it. And you always are going to have to iterate over that feedback. And so, like when we get that question, like what's our ROI, how are we going to do it? Like, well, how many iterations are we going to have through the process? Because we're not going to get it right the first time. Even though we've done it a lot of times, the success, the success is in the journey and that the end result. 

Yeah. And there's so much variables, you know, maybe you're going to adjust for a long way. 

The market will tell you is so true, not just in new sales, but I was having this conversation with a founder the other day who's struggling really, really, really bad with churn and leaky bucket. They're a small to medium-sized business. Call it $150-ish per month. Annual contract that allows people to build monthly. 

So they always get this. Well, Lindsay, even though I have six months left on my contract, I dropped from five people to four people. So I need to reduce the seat. Yeah. 

Now, that's a whole separate conversation about what to do. But when you see people churning at the end of their term and not renewing, what's the market telling you? Generally speaking, I'm a big believer and had another founder who said this to me yesterday. If we're building a product that's so good that people love it and can't imagine running their ex-business without it, they are not going to churn. Now, you're going to have out of business churn. 

Like you're going to have certain things that happen. But when people start leaving you in mass for a competitor, you have to be willing to say, we have a fundamental problem. Is it a pricing problem or is it a product problem? 

But it's a problem at the end of the day. The market will tell you what your problems are, whether you are looking at top of funnel, whether you are looking at mid bottom of funnel, or whether you're looking at renewal and post close. The problem is most people don't want to listen to the market. And I find, and I'm curious if you see this as well, a lot of founders take their product very personally, which is great. 

That's what makes them amazing founders. But it's almost like, oh my God, you're telling me my kid is ugly. I'm not telling you your kid's ugly. Your kid is fantastic. But your kid needs to go to a little bit of training or something to get a little bit better. 

Are you running across that? Does that help? Yeah. Yeah, of course. And I think it goes for founders. It also goes for investors. Anyone who has skin in the game. And I think that getting everyone aligned to listen to the market together and hear the same thing and then be like, are we all hearing the same thing? Can we make sure we're all hearing the same thing? Is so much easier said than done. 

Because, yeah, the founder, it's their baby. I've been there. I felt it. And investors and other stakeholders literally have invested in it and need to see a return. And so I actually had an investor tell me one time, Lindsey, you have to remember our priorities are not aligned. And that just smacked me in the face. 

And I was like, what do you mean? Like, we all want to see this succeed. But succeed meant something different to me as like wanting to see the vision through. And like carry forth this vision versus an investor that was like, no, I need to see a return. 

Like no matter what that return looks like. And so, yeah, I think that listening to the market, obviously that is truth. And doing, we were talking about how often do you pressure test it? 

Yet another reason to do that as often as possible and make sure that all of the stakeholders around the literal or virtual table are aligned on what the market is saying. 

So how do you do that from a, sorry, Dale, from a super tactical, super actual point? How do you pressure test anything as a founder? Like whether it's messaging, whether it's product, like what, what can a founder who's listening to this right now walk away and go pressure test one thing? What's the one thing they should go pressure test right now? Um, talk to your customers. I mean, so amazing how many don't. But I know. 

I know. I think, yeah, especially there's a lot of different founder personas and I think some it's, it's more natural than others, but you have to, you have to. And not just the happy ones, um, especially not like the ones that don't like you very much. 

Yeah, you'll get in the echo chamber and you won't be able to, uh, to say for what's real and what's not real. You know, one of the, one of the interesting things that I find, whether it's working with your board investors or just the people in your organization. And what we do is a lot of companies will work with. Like you have to establish expectations and make sure that the expectations are the same. You just talked about what success, like we all want to be successful. Great. 

Success means different. For like you want to potentially like cast it. You probably wanted to get to a point of selling the company. What the profit margin on that or what the return on that may not have been what, when, if you got funding on it was what the investors wanted for success. Like if you get a five X return, maybe that's success for you, but that's success for the investor that said, I wanted 10 X return on my money. So aligning those expectations and getting like pure definitions, not like, okay, we all want to be successful. 

But how do we. So why do we say set those expectations early and off to make sure they're time bound, they're measurable, like everyone knows what they are. And then visit them or revisit them like almost weekly, like, because that 1% off that you get on a weekly basis over a quarter can have you like so far off base. That is really hard to recover. And then you guys do unnatural things in the business to recover to that place. Yeah. 

Yeah. Actually, it's kind of a side, but in support of your like one decision, like can 1% and talk that again last week, I was talking about these one, one degree, one degree decisions and the plane that takes off in San Francisco, headed for Washington DC, if it is off course by one degree when it takes off, just one. By the time it gets over LA, it'll be off course by just six miles. 

Just six miles. 

Just six miles, right? Just six miles. Ultimately, it will land in Baltimore, which is not Washington DC. Safe landing, which especially these days is a great, great outcome. 

I'm flying on Friday. Dale and I are flying next week. We like safe landing. 

I'm going to Baltimore in a couple of weeks. I'm there with you. 

You're going to DC. If I'm on that plane. I'm going to miss it off. If I'm on that plane, I'm going to be like, cool, Baltimore seems lovely, but I needed to go to Washington DC. 

So yes, you're right. Aligning on expectations of like where, where is this plane going? Again, easier said than done, probably easier within your executive leadership team and throughout your organization than it ultimately is with 

sometimes if you're bored in your investors, because those goal posts can change and they can shift. But the least you can do is have alignment of what good looks like, what success looks like on a regular basis within your organization. Easier said than done. 

And with that, we are just about at time, but we wouldn't be who we are. If we didn't throw some rapid fire your way. So 10 words or less. We may have had someone yesterday who probably went 654 words on one of these questions. 

So 10 words or less. Good thing no one knows when we actually record these. Early bird or night owl? Early bird. How early? I get a bit 455. Oh, okay. That's early. You win. 

There we go. You win. If you weren't in tech, whether a profession would you be in? 

And just be magically successful interior design. 

Nice. Nice. 

Favorite guilty. My wife and dear designer, she loves it. 

Favorite and she's good too. Favorite guilty pleasure snack. 

Ice cream, which I can't have dairy anymore, which is really lame and so like a good non-dairy ice cream is a big treat. 

What's the most used work emoji in your work? The shrug. 

We don't use a lot of emoji in ours, but we tend to text much more than we slack. What's the one thing you do to unwind after a particularly long stressful day? 

I have the three best kids and my husband's amazing. So I live with the four greatest dudes on the planet. And so just time, they still snuggle up with me even though they're like team pre-team. Just all piled up on the couch. 

I have a 13 year old. He cuddled with me last night. It's very rare that he's like that. Can we just hang out and watch TV and like, I love it. 

You're like, yes, yes, right now. Please, let me drop whatever I'm doing. Running to the couch. Yeah, yeah, that's me. 

Let's wrap this up. Dream vacation destination. 

Oh, Scotland. Have you been? Scotland. I have. Nice, awesome. Amazing. First place again to mind is Scotland. Nice. 

Lindsay, thank you so much for joining the show. Thanks for sharing your insights. Where can people find you and learn more about what you're doing? Feel free to shamelessly plug your podcast. 

Okay. All right. This is when you give me the tickets to my dream vacation, right? 

Just turn it off or we stop recording. Just got them. 

Okay. I'm super active on LinkedIn. So if you can figure out how to spell my name, you can find me there. And then humanbrandswin.com is a website where I'm constantly changing how I talk about what I do. Lindsaychopkoma.com talks about speaking and how I do that. And then my show, as you mentioned, is actuallyicam.show. 

I love it. Lindsay, thank you so much. Have an awesome day. You too. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. 

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