Episode #113 Would You Trust AI to Sell for You? ft. Frank Sondors

Outbound isn’t dead. Bad outbound is.
In this episode, Salesforge CEO Frank Sondors shows how AI-native infrastructure lets lean teams beat bloated orgs—without spamming and without hiring sprees.

What you’ll learn:
 • The real blocker in outbound: deliverability, not personalization—and how superior targeting revives reply rates
 • Why AI means you don’t need 10 reps to hit $10M—and where humans still win
 • The GTM “blend”: humans + agents in one stack (and how to A/B your team vs. agents)
 • Where current stacks add drag (email IPs, sequencing, manual ops) and how to fix it
 • Clean data → good AI: orchestration, context, and self-labeling to avoid “garbage in”
 • Compliance reality check: what agents can/can’t do across email, LinkedIn, calling
 • The 24-month outlook: agent-to-agent negotiations, procurement bots, and the new SDR

Follow Frank:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/franksondors

PS - huge shout out to Sendoso for sponsoring our show.

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Transcript

This is Bridge the Gap, powered by Revenue Reimagined, the podcast where we dive into all things revenue. Each episode, we bring you the top founders and go-to-market leaders to challenge how you think about growth and help you bridge your biggest go-to-market gaps. I'm Adam Jay. And I'm Dale Zwizinski. 

As always, thanks for hanging with us. There's a million ways you can be spending your time, and we're grateful for you choosing to spend it with us. Be sure to check out our newsletter if you want the show notes and tactical advice on how to bridge your GTM Gaps. Let's get to it. 

Welcome back to another episode of Bridge the Gap, powered by Revenue Reimagined. Today's guest is Frank Sondors, CEO and co-founder of Forge, and one of the most outspoken voices on what GTM looks like when you rebuild it from scratch with AI infrastructure. Let's get one thing clear. He's not a hype guy. He is an operator. He's building sales Forge, mail Forge, Prime Forge, Infra Forge, and more. I can't remember them all, but we will talk about this. We're going to talk about rethinking the GTM machine altogether. Frank, welcome to the show, man. 

Thanks for having me. Yeah, I mean, you said an operator. Yeah, that's exactly what I've been up to over the last 10 years. I spent over a decade in sales. And in my last gig, I was VP sales. I had a sales team of 50. 

That's where I saw the dam. The main lever to target attainment was the sales. I was just hiring a bunch of reps, and I thought that was really the wrong way to look at the pipeline and target attainment. I thought, why is the software doesn't scale? 

Wait a minute. You mean that if I want to get $10 million, I don't hire 10 reps and give them all a million dollar quota, and we're just going to hit $10 million? Really? 

I mean, back in the days, you didn't have chat, GPT, you didn't have anything. So it's not like humans were the really the main lever to actually get you to your number. Today, instead of 10 reps, you can easily have five or six, and you can see a lot of evidence in the Bay and a bunch of other places in the world that you have very, very small teams living superior revenue levels. So it's evident in the market, but a bunch of companies are still struggling to change and transform and implement the genetic systems and blah, blah, blah. The market is going to actually lower, the growing slower, and so on and so forth. 

Yeah, it's interesting. One of the things we've been talking a lot about is the productivity paradox. So people are thinking that they're being more productive, or at least chat, GPT is telling them they're being more productive if you listen to it. So let's jump into some outbound stuff though. So let's not even warm up. Let's just jump right into it. What's the core problem of outbound today? 

Well, I think if you just look at all the three main channels of journey of outbound, which is email, LinkedIn, and calling, right, you are fighting against the, on the other side of the spectrum, the forces, right? So let's go on the called email front. You got Microsoft and Google tidying up their belts on, you know, they're doing a lot more policing, a lot more anti-spam software, essentially, deliverability. 

It's pretty poor on LinkedIn front. That doesn't really scale really. So there's a bunch of restrictions there. And then the call calling front, you've got carriers also tidying in their belts. So it is getting tougher, essentially. 

And that's, you know, and it's quite normal to be honest, because, you know, back in the days, it was all about, you know, spray and pray, and that's why they introduced a bunch of different restrictions, right? So it is getting tougher. So things have evolved, and most of the companies have not evolved with the changes. So they're struggling, and this is why you've got a lot of people, it doesn't matter on LinkedIn or somewhere else, saying the called email is dead and everything's dead. I guess what, I mean, plenty of people that make millions of dollars from called email still today. 

Everything's dead. You can't send a called email. You can't send a called call. Don't message people on LinkedIn. Just build it and they will come, right? We've gone to a society where the world is at inbound this week in San Francisco, nothing against inbound. We love HubSpot, but outbound is dead. 

It doesn't work. We see this every day. I can tell you, I personally have bought probably four products this year for our business from outbound pitches that were relevant timed properly with a message that resonated. So outbound isn't dead. Shit outbound is dead. 

And if you can get outbound in front of Adam and get him to buy something, he's the tightest person around. 

I mean, I've got a bunch of problems, right, as a founder, right? And I just wish that somebody would reach out to me about the problems I have right now. But I typically, the type of emails I get is like, Frank, do you need some software engineers? 

Frank, do you need some SEO? Leads. Come on, Frank, I'm going to guarantee you leads. 

Yeah, and the people that should be reaching out to me, they're not reaching out to me. I don't know why the right vendors or service providers are not reaching out to me. 

I have no clue. But yeah, I've got problems and everybody else has problems. And it's all about the right targeting copy, the right infrastructure in place. So that means folks are struggling still in that front. So that's why the tech probably is not there yet. So we're doing our own attempt trying to solve that. But yeah, the answer to how we're looking at national to solve the problem is helping folks to generate the pipeline. But with the least headcount possible, because ultimately generating the net new dollars in our bond is becoming more and more expensive over time. So we are trying to build a sort of a tech stack that allows you to reduce CAACs, so cost of customer acquisition, right? 

So that brings an interesting point to the question. Where does the current stack, the current tech stack introduce drag into speed? 

So you're talking about speed in particular? 

Yeah, the current stack, where does it introduce a drag instead of speed? Like, you have a current stack, you think it's providing you speed because you're generating more outbound messages, you get this dialer running. But where is it introducing drag instead of like really creating productivity for you? 

I think when you're buying a software where it's mainly anchored on humans, that's introducing drag. I'll give an example. So we operate around the globe, right? So we have customers in the US, Europe, but also in Asia Pacific as well. But guess what? My sales reps, they only do, you know, they don't work around the clock, right? So, and I have a leaky bucket, essentially, when the humans are not working around the clock. So, like, so that means, you know, that has to do with part of the business, right? So I am looking at systems that are able to, you know, where we are running around the clock, right? 

Because otherwise I'm not generating revenue, right? So, like, essentially any other form of sort of, you know, process or etc. Where everything is anchored on purely on humans, I have a problem, essentially. And I think other businesses also have typically a problem, right? So you need to, like, I'm a big believer, essentially, today, doesn't matter whether it's the sales, finance, or other areas that we will be working more and more with agenda capabilities, whether these are off-the-shelf solutions, or you're just building something on something like N810, right? 

And there's a bunch of businesses that are not doing anything, right? So they all believe it's a fad and they just don't want to transform, or they're just totally against AI and all that stuff, right? And, I mean, my idea is just inevitable, because there are a bunch of inefficiencies. If everything is anchored just on humans, essentially, or your employees in the business. So you need to run a system in automated fashion, either semi-autonomously or full-on autonomously, right, some of the proceeds. Otherwise, you'll end up, you know, hiring people to do those repetitive jobs, right? So, yeah. 

I think we're seeing a big play for efficiency. And I think Dale and I very much agree with you when it comes to the state of AI and where AI is going. I think the caveat there, and I actually just posted about this this morning, we talked about this last week, and I'll tie it to something Salesforce just said. So Mark Benioff just made an announcement that they laid off 4,000 customer support agents, right? Because of Agent Force. And it's all going to be AI now. Now, I've used Agent Force, and I'll take some crap for this. It sucks. And listen, whatever, all the Salesforce haters could come for me. It's fine. 

You mean Matthew McConaughey is not pushing Service Force? 

The problem with most AI that I'm seeing, and I would love your take on this, is in order for AI to work, you have to have good, clean, structured data. 

Otherwise, you are just repeating more of the bad shit. And while the Benioff thing is certainly real, I use this one a lot of, like, chat GPT and Claude have this connector to HubSpot, and that's great in Salesforce. And you can pull all this information and instantly ask it questions that would take you hours to get. But all you're doing is vomiting up the same shit data that it would take you hours to get. How do you make sure that before you start truly going AI augmented or even AI native and fully autonomous, what are the steps that you're taking to make sure that the data is clean, there's a process in place, and you're aiming for a specific outcome versus, oh, this N8N or this tool or this whatever looks cool? 

Yes, I mean, you already mentioned the problem is the orchestration. So you've got a bunch of people that take AI and essentially they don't know what they're doing, and then just implement it, and then you see a bunch of trash essentially out there on the web, and you're saying, okay, this doesn't work, et cetera, because they haven't been orchestrated correctly. So yes, you're saying the right thing is the structured data sets are not in place, the right context is in place, et cetera. And just like in the good old AI, which was machine learning, it's like garbage in, garbage out essentially, and it's same with gen AI as well, right? 

So there's a problem there as well. So the way that, for example, we're looking to tackle it is whether the user provides the input, especially about the context of their own business. So you can provide a bunch of context about what your business is about. We can go and scrape your website. We can go and check out your LinkedIn profile. We can go and check out your case studies. 

You can upload also a bunch of documentation about your business, like a sales playbook, pricing, et cetera. So you need to build the right context, and you are doing what's called what we call self labeling within our ecosystem. So we can understand what sort of industry are you in? 

Who is your ICP, so ideal customer profile, et cetera. And that gives us structure. And when every customer does this at scale within our ecosystem, suddenly I have the data power essentially, right? 

So suddenly I'm able to orchestrate really well. And that's because I've decided this customer is called XYZ. No, the customers are saying, I am in this industry, this is my ICP, this is what I sell, right? So customers actually are able to structure multiple products that they're selling within the ecosystem. So that provides me structure, that provides me the right context. And I'm able to leverage that, what we call seller context, and match that quite nicely with what we call the buyer context. So essentially what we do, we do web calling in every single person on the planet, based on all publicly available data sets. 

So the typical stuff like the website, LinkedIn, bunch of other sources. And we're essentially doing what I would describe like the matching between the sellers and the buyers. So this is what the seller is selling, this is what the buyer, and we can definitely fetch some signals, et cetera, and then execute the best copy possible, right? And then there is learning mechanisms in place, right? 

So if we're getting responses, right, so the AI learns from that, if we're not getting responses, the AI learns from that, et cetera, and adjusts, right? So you need to orchestrate this really well. And it's not that easy to be honest, to do all of this, because you need to optimize these multiple different steps. And it's not just something that we optimize, for example, just for the world of email, but we're just about to launch also LinkedIn. So you need to figure out how do you execute a second channel, and you do that really well as well there, right? 

So it's not that easy, it's just that the first way where the AI or AI agents, it doesn't matter where the mark pushed it out, right? Mr. Benioff or our competitor, Mr. Benioff, I like that. There's a lot of bad stuff on the web and reviews, et cetera, that the agents doesn't work. But trust me, this year I'm seeing a lot of good stuff, but just coming from us, but also from our competitors, and Mark will also sort out his agents as well, I believe, and that will get better, and ultimately then suddenly humans or the employees within the organizations will be put under more pressure, right? But my bigger recommendation is to kind of think really carefully what is it that you do right now in the company, and see if AI could replace you. If the answer is yes, AI is very likely to replace you. AI is coming off to your job for sure over the next two years, so be prepared. 

I don't know if Salesforce will figure it out. They needed Watson to get Einstein running, so we'll see if he can figure out the... 

That's kind of funny, and I do think Mr. Benioff will be just fine. Dale, I would like you to refer to me as Mr. Jay from now on instead of Adam. Yes, old man. Frank, you're older than me. 

Mark is under pressure to throw it out. He's got 100%. He's got a pressure ring down his neck, and if Salesforce is not releasing agents, it looks odd. So he just... He never didn't do the necessary recession development that's required to actually put out proper agents out, right? So he just rushed it and rolled it out. People are not impressed, but I bet they will sort out all the issues, and the agents will get better. 

Eventually they will. I mean, listen, I like Salesforce. I love HubSpot. HubSpot announced over 200 different things yesterday and not to turn this into a HubSpot promo, but Breeze is pretty cool. It has its limitations as well. I don't think anyone's done it perfectly yet. 

Before we started recording, I said to you, I'm familiar with some of your products, right? I've used MailForge before, had a great experience with some of our clients, never used Salesforce. I've been using MailForge looking over the website in my show prep. We are in the process of building outbound for us right now, and I'm like, holy shit, this would be such a big help versus what I run our operations, but what I'm going to have to do manually that I don't want to do. And I think your product has really enhanced over, we'll call it 12 months, 6 months, certainly the last quarter. When you look at all of your products, what's the difference between AI enhanced outbound that everyone says they have and what you are really building? 

So I would say that I probably already mentioned this, what we believe is in the fact that within a single software environment, so that Salesforce, you will have sales teams running their campaigns, but also in tandem, you will spin up agents. So we all believe in what we call the blend, and that's what's coming across multiple orgs. So we don't believe that Salesforce should be optimized either for humans or just agent-only software, because it leaves a more fragmentation. So essentially humans and AI agents have to learn how to work together. 

And that's ultimately what we're building, and we're doubling down on that. Think of it maybe like a Google Ads account essentially. And within Google Ads, back in the days, you could only do bidding, which is what's called manual CPC bidding essentially, so where humans set manual bits and the auction runs, and that's it. 

And today you can run these fantastic automated campaigns. And all of that happens in a single environment, a single UI. And so think of it the same thing, but for outbound. 

We've got to do inbound as well, but just think of the fact that humans can set up and do manual adjustments, etc. And then you can have a second campaign where it is fully agent-ic. So the AI agents decide everything, when to send, what should be in the copy, what should be in the follow-up, etc. And you'll be able to do A-B sort of testing and see whether AI agents outperform you or not. 

So all in one platform. I don't have to buy my domains from you, put them in one of the other platforms. I could do it all in one. One login. I spent time at Toast and we used one throat to choke. I'm going to do it all, but holy shit, you better do it right. 

We're calling it the Apple ecosystem. So you're going to start realizing these benefits, whether that's a single login or sharing the data from multiple apps across the ecosystem. So it's for your own benefit, so you do less sales ops kind of stuff. Because yeah, there's just too much fragmentation because there's a lot of point solutions. You have to fit them together. And yes, you can build your stack that way. 

Or you can go to a single vendor, single invoice, single support team that provides critical capabilities across data, infrastructure, execution, orchestration, right? And the copy. So actually sending great emails. So the copy plays a big part. 

That's the hardest part, in my opinion. Like, infra is certainly important. But as we talked about when we started, if the message isn't right and the message doesn't resonate, your infrastructure could be the best in the world. 

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Yeah, this is why copying, targeting, play crucial parts. So essentially, if you're targeting is off or copies off, that leaves some more spam reports, more blacklisting, more everything, and it will kill your infrastructure very fast. But generally speaking, you know, if somebody's using it today, HubSpot or Salesforce, these CRs are not designed for any form of outbound, really. Their IPs, the mobility, it's not designed for that. And if you go to the health center, they'll tell you, do not do anything. 

Please for anyone listening, do not use HubSpot for outbound. It does not end well ever. I love HubSpot, not for outbound. 

Yeah, in fact, just to go on that point, I was talking to one of our clients who's here and he was in a session with HubSpot and someone asked the question, like 100 people in the room, you know, can we use HubSpot for outbound? HubSpot says specifically, if you use HubSpot for outbound, they can take your license away. Like they can. 

Yeah, you're violating their terms. They're very clear about it. 

I wish I would record that, you know, I would love to use that as an ad, you know. 

But people do it because, number one, I think they're cheap. Number two, because HubSpot has sequencing, people like, oh, sequencing outbound. Sequencing serves lots of other purposes besides cold outbound. Yeah. 

So, yeah, this is why, you know, just like, you know, HubSpot has coined the term inbound, I mean, exactly when you leave signs up to your site, you would sequence them with a couple of messages on board, whatever that is, right, you send them to them. But yeah, a lot of people think that sequencing outbound inbound is exactly the same thing. 

No. I mean, on outbound, you get at least a 10x more spam reports. And these spam reports kill your IPs and the ability and everything. And so HubSpot doesn't want to do anything with, you know, having the IPs being damaged, essentially, by Google Microsoft. So that's why they definitely stay out of that world. 

It can have a very negative impact on HubSpot overall performance, you know, when it comes to sending out emails. That's why they would definitely want to, you know, eject you, essentially, from the ecosystem if you're going to be naughty. So this is why these other softwares exist, like our et cetera, where you build, you know, you architect the specific system that is actually able to do that. And as I said, it's not easy. 

You kind of have to think about multiple things. But I mean, the good news is that outbound still works because guess what? Your alternative, if you're not going to do outbound, is you're going to spend a ton of money with Google. And trust me, from a sort of CPA standpoint, looking at acquisition costs, you won't be happy. 

No, no, we know that. You can bring Google back in the days. 

Frank, I have a quick question for you. So you were just talking earlier about autonomous businesses, and we're doing some partnering with a company called Swan that you may or may not know out of Israel. Yeah, yeah, they're really great. Yeah. 

And so I'm here with Amos and we were talking about some stuff. And you talked about autonomous businesses. So how do you define autonomous businesses? Because I just had a long conversation with them yesterday about autonomous businesses and how it works. 

Curious because you brought it up. What's your definition of an autonomous business? And it looks like you're moving that way from a forage company perspective. So give us your definition of that. 

So for me, an autonomous business is where a big chunk of the decision making happens based on big data like let's go that way. So there's a vast amount of data that is being leveraged, not just your own first body data, so your standard data, whatever, but also other data sets. So think of sort of local like companies or like industry level data. So essentially, a vast amount of data that's being leveraged to execute various form of activities, whether that's sending out an email invoice, reconciliation to a bunch of other things. And that means humans stop doing a lot of the kind of manual work and admin work, repetitive work, right? 

And a lot of that is being executed ultimately by those systems. So humans should be doing only things that humans are really good at. And that's creative work, speaking to customers, all that stuff is super important to humans stick around. But all the stuff that's repetitive of humans are bad at like writing a copy. Like 90% plus of people are really including sales. They're really bad at writing copies. 

So yeah, I don't have like, you know, kind of nice little definition. But trust me, like, you know, I've seen the systems and I see them improving. So right. So we've definitely seen a huge wave or what I call the text front. We have a massive wave on the voice front. And the next wave that's coming literally like right now is the video front. Yeah, we're going to start seeing, you know, Hollywood, you know, quality sort of or style of movies coming out from Gen AI in the next couple, you know, a year or two. It's quite mind blowing. 

You know, it's a lining. I'm building a video front as well as solution as well next year for sales purposes. Because guess what? The big problem when it comes to humans and sales reps is that they're really bad at shooting a video to their prospects. So I'll be able to solve that. Yeah, because the tech is there, right? The technology is there. 

Well, it's the editing part. I don't know if it's the shooting of the video. People don't like to be on video first of all. I mean, that's a statement I know. But it's also the editing pieces become a really big pain in the neck because who wants to send out a bad video? Right. 

So yeah, the camera shy, the bad at it, whatever. But guess what? I can just take your picture off LinkedIn and I can make you say and do things in any language with any accent. It's one of a camera to infinite number of prospects. That's what I'll be able to. 

But see, that's possible because of that. 

You know, but are you, but then at that point, are you really providing value or are you just regurgitating things that you've you found across? Like now we're getting out of the world of like strategically thinking and figuring out how to collaborate and we're getting into like you say and taking over jobs. 

I want to just go back because I on the autonomous business side, I think you and you and Amos from a from a conceptual high level perspective is the right thing. Like we all have levels of genius. We have lanes of genius that we're trying to work in. And we are like, it's how do you mold the AI around your level of your late genius? So doing the things you really enjoy doing and then knowing and having the self-awareness of the gaps you have and what you do not enjoy doing. 

For example, a lot of people do not enjoy doing outbound. So like, how do you autonomously drive that to go to wrap around the humans lane of genius to make them more effective and efficient? So I think you guys are aligning in the right space. 

Yeah, but there's also one thing that nobody kind of thinks about when it comes to agentic stuff. So regulations, for example, so any form of agentic systems and, for example, call calling, that's totally legal in the US and Europe, for example. So that's where humans will still be in play, meaning reps will be doing call calls that will still be a thing. 

Agentic systems can be only used for inbound calling when you have consent. So you have to see how the regulations will sort of pan out the next few years. And yeah, so you also have to think from kind of channel lens, text, voice versus video, like all of these things is something that you need to orchestrate, you need to orchestrate correctly. Decision making, I believe, will be done by agentic systems more and more. Because, for example, a human does not know when it's the best time to send an email, for example. 

You know, how it should be crafted, like all of these things. A human has to sometimes think before 30 minutes, four an hour to do something and guess what, any agent can look at billions of lines of code in seconds and make the best possible decision for your business and for your prospect, right, to try and connect. However, one thing I definitely want to say is that as a bunch of companies like us are building a bunch of, you know, let's call the agents on the seller front, we're also seeing agents being built on the buyer front as well, right? So, and I think where we are headed, you know, is ultimately where agents will talk to agents in the future, because, you know, two businesses or two individuals are not very good at talking to each other. So, there will be essentially qualifications that will be done between the seller and the buyer as we progress into the future before two humans will connect, you know, over a call. And I think that's where we headed. 

Matt, and even more so, sorry to interrupt you. Well, like, when you get to procurement, I think procurement is a place that is severely at risk. You have people making manual decisions about what they'll accept, what they want, what they redline and what they won't. It is going to be a bot that is like hard, like, it's going to go through logic of, well, this discount will meet here, this red light, and there will be maybe a lawyer looks at it for the last second, but the days of negotiating with someone in procurement for enterprise deals, I think that's gone. That is going to be, there will be an AI procurement bot that handles your notifications. 

Or your negotiations. Yeah, and there are a bunch of examples already in the industry, just that it will accelerate. I think the percentages are just very tiny in the world right now, where this is, we're seeing, you know, the sort of behavior. But yeah, for example, our agent, named after me, Agent Frank, when we're reaching out to a bunch of other companies, the agent responds back. We're already seeing that. We're already seeing agents in the buy up front talking to our agent and they're talking to each other. And that traffic right now, email traffic is less than 1%. 

So we definitely will see that percentage going up. And so we will need to build our systems in a way that our agent on the seller side is able to communicate effectively with the agent on the buyer side. And do decent job on the qualification front so that the human on the buyer side decides actually to say yes to this. But yeah, because I mean, ultimately, there is more, you know, more and more emails being automated, send out, etc. So buyers are overwhelming and their inboxes are flooded with a lot of emails. So that's why there will be a pressure to build agents on the buyer front. The buyers will be buying these agents to manage their mailboxes. So like, you know, I don't see why this wouldn't sort of be a reality in a year or two. And we're just going to see a percentage of email traffic going up and up, where this will be more and more agendic, essentially. So when we look out, is this 12 months, 24 months? 

Like, when do you see the sales org really changing and making that shift from human agents to agents humans and really seeing that shift of agents becoming first and having, you know, significantly less human capital in a GTM org? 

I mean, I mean, that would mean that 50% of email traffic would be handled by agents. We're far away from that. I would say two to four years. Two to four years. That's my, if I want to be ambitious, you know, we would say that 50% of email traffic between sales and buyers are handled by agents in full. 

The fastest will be two to four years. There's a lot of resistance by humans and organizations when it comes to AI. There's a lot of political problems, essentially, with no organizations. Why they're not kind of moving faster? They'd rather have, you know, they'd rather be less efficient, you know, have, you know, worse operations for whatever the reasons, right? Somebody doesn't want to introduce this because they know that their team will be wiped out or, you know, their jobs are going away, etc. There will be resistance within companies to go hard on the agendic front. 

So there will be resistance by humans. I can definitely see that. As a result, there will be friction and that will result in delays. But, you know, best case, I think two to four years, but definitely worst case, 

I think, is the way people are going to be built. I was talking with this about a couple of people, you know, say the way companies are going to get built, the way people are going to get funding, like it's all going to be changing because funding, like it's almost like some companies can flip on the PE or VEC firms because if they're not, if they don't have to be human capital intensive, because you have to hire all A players and now you're becoming an autonomous company, like that flips the terms. 

Yeah, but even think about VCs and the analysts, do they hire, right? Why do you need a human analyst? Why wouldn't, you know, why wouldn't a thought of this pitching talk to an AI agent? 

Yeah, why not? And we have examples already where somebody literally has done a form of that. So Nathan Latka, if it's, yeah, we're very familiar. He's built his own agent for found a path, right, where he's dispersing loans to start off, etc. And instead of him doing this on manual, etc, or to a bunch of automations, he's built his own bot to assess and allocate capital. I believe up to XCAP where the agent can do that. And I believe a lot of that is coming in the world of VCs. Because as I said, ultimately an agent can, you know, quickly look at billions of lines of code and do predictions and analyze markets and whatever, you know, very fast. This will improve the deal flow, conversions, reduce risk for LPs, you know, and stuff like that. 

So that's just not the realm. So again, I'm super excited about that. Because I mean, we all know that we're waiting for the VCs to do the due diligence and blah, blah, blah, whatever they're doing, right? And the agent literally could do that, you know, it depends on you, right? You're speaking to it, right? You're giving all documents, process. So I also see huge, huge transformation also on that front as well. Awesome. 

Let's wrap up a little bit with some rapid fire. Ten words or less. Let's see if we can keep it rapid and ready to go. One part of your GTM stack you'd never trade. 

Well, I'm a bit biased, but we're something else. 

Besides your own product. Yeah. Yeah. 

So but I don't want to talk about my own product. I think it would be something else. I know it goes against what we were talking about, but as I said, we are believers in the blend, humans plus the agents. One thing that you can do literally right now on our website, if you go to our site, you can literally call a rep life. 

That piece of stack that would never go away. I always want to give any human the ability to talk to another human. If my humans are online, they're in the office, they're ready to pick up the phone. You can literally call us. I believe that thing is not going away. So connecting people lives is very cool. 

I'm looking at that now. I don't think I've seen that before. 

We get over 200 calls a month from that thing. That's very cool. You generate a ton of pipe from that thing. So what I'm doing as a founder, I'm trying to figure out how can I increase high-intent traffic or something on my site and then giving every user the bumps on my side, the ability just to call me. You want to call us is a lot of time that's being generated from that. I would not trade that thing for anything else. 

I love that. Frank, what's what go to market hire you think becomes obsolete within three years? It doesn't exist anymore. 

I would say junior SDRs for sure. As I said, we will definitely have a need somehow for what I call mid to senior SDRs for co-calling purposes. I don't know how do you get to a mid to senior SDR level because juniors are kind of, you know, they will be kind of out of jobs because, you know, AI agents will be able to do junior jobs quite easily. But yeah, what is definitely coming is naturally these what's called GTM engineers. We call them actually sales development engineers. 

That's our own term that we've coined because we do believe that the top of the funnel will be become more technical. You have to know what the APIs are or how systems talk to each other. You just know how to talk to humans. It's a good skill to have, but if you have no, like you like folks will need to become more technical in sales. And so if you're not investing, you know, in becoming more technical, you will be potentially out of work. 

Harder problem, deliverability or personalization? Deliverability, for sure. 

Like what's the point of personalization if your email is landing spam? 

What's one cold outreach myth that just needs to die? Say it again. What is one cold outbound myth that just needs to die? We need to put it to bed. Outbound is dead. 

I mean, I think one thing that's a myth is that every email needs to be personalized. It's not always the case. Reason. Complaint. Being is that your targeting is so spot on. 

And because if the targeting is so solid, and even though you didn't personalize your email, the person will still respond, even with the template you sent to them, because of superior targeting. But that is very hard to crack. I think one thing that I'd like to do, so I'll give an example of where I don't need to use the I because I have solid targeting. So for example, I have the ability to go up to followers of my competitors. So I'll reach out to them. And I don't really need to use the I in that case because I know it's a follower base of my competitors. And it's the closest thing to knowing who are the accounts of my competitors. And so I know that they are what's called problem and solution aware. 

And I just need to position ourselves as being different, cheaper, faster, better, whatever that is. So that's an example of superior targeting where you don't add not everything needs to be personalized all the time. Right. So yeah, I love that. 

Last one as we wrap it up, dream vacation destination. Adam was I say this one? 

The same one every time. Antarctica, actually. 

It's article. Nice. Love it. We haven't got that one before. Yeah, very cool. Very cool. 

Yeah, I think it's Argentina. Take a boat and then shoot off to Antarctica. A friend of mine went there. It was quite impressive from what I've seen and that increased my motivation levels also to the same. So yeah. 

I love it. Frank, thank you so much for joining the show. We will put links to salesforge in the website, links to your LinkedIn profile, but it's salesforge. I am sitting on it right now. Thanks for sharing all your knowledge, man. Thanks for having me. Thanks so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. 

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